From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp77.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (smtp77.iad3a.emailsrvr.com [173.203.187.77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC2B13B29E for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2021 16:18:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from app48.wa-webapps.iad3a (relay-webapps.rsapps.net [172.27.255.140]) by smtp18.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 52A6E239BB for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2021 16:18:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from deepplum.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by app48.wa-webapps.iad3a (Postfix) with ESMTP id 406E1E17C3 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 2021 16:18:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by apps.rackspace.com (Authenticated sender: dpreed@deepplum.com, from: dpreed@deepplum.com) with HTTP; Mon, 13 Dec 2021 16:18:09 -0500 (EST) X-Auth-ID: dpreed@deepplum.com Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 16:18:09 -0500 (EST) From: "David P. Reed" To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_20211213161809000000_52174" Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Type: html In-Reply-To: References: X-Client-IP: 209.6.168.128 Message-ID: <1639430289.26112669@apps.rackspace.com> X-Mailer: webmail/19.0.13-RC X-Classification-ID: 56eca430-2dbb-4b3b-b470-e225ab26e84f-1-1 Subject: Re: [Starlink] raptor codes X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 21:18:09 -0000 ------=_20211213161809000000_52174 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0ASince you asked about GPL and fountain codes, I'll add another comment, = both inline below, and in a preface.=0A =0AI also had a side discussion wit= h Mike Luby regarding IPR. He clarified that the fountain code patents of D= igital Fountain, Inc. were acquired by Qualcomm entirely when Digital Fount= ain was acquired by Qualcomm, and also mentioned that there had been subseq= uent work at Qualcomm by employees and contractors (and more patents have b= een filed, and some may be in process).=0A =0AHe also would wish that other= s would use the term "fountain codes" rather than the term "rateless erasur= e codes". The two terms actually define two different, but largely overlapp= ing, sets of codes, with a lot of common properties. The codes I described = are arguably covered by either term.=0A =0ANow I respect the law. I am not = criticizing Luby for using the patent law. If it had been me, because of th= e subject matter I would not have sought patent rights, for the same reason= that I don't patent abstract algorithms or data structures - even if the U= SPTO would allow them. But that's a personal, political view.=0A =0AIANAL, = but with regard to GPL, my understanding is that all code licensed under GP= L must not implement any patented algorithm, unless there is a specific lic= ense that covers the specific use in the code as it was when authorized. Th= is was true based on court precedent in GPLv2, and is specifically included= in GPLv3's license. So, the contributor of any such code to a GPL project = must obtain that license as well as granting their assignment of copyright = to the actual code. (please don't trust me, ask a patent attorney, preferab= ly one who also understands copyright licenses and specializes in GPL).=0A = =0ATo use anything that might infringe any of those patents, other than the= one case handled by the very narrow licenses for Raptor and RaptorQ used w= ithin the limited cases described, you must negotiate a patent license. Tha= t's clear from Luby here and from my discussion with him.=0A =0AOn Sunday, = December 12, 2021 7:32pm, starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net said:=0A= =0A=0A=0A> Message: 2=0A> Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2021 16:32:38 -0800=0A> From: D= ave Taht =0A> To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net=0A> S= ubject: [Starlink] raptor codes=0A> Message-ID:=0A> =0A> Content-Type: text/= plain; charset=3D"utf-8"=0A> =0A> "Mike" Luby (formerly of qualcomm, now th= e CEO of bitripple) and I=0A> exchanged some email today.=0A> =0A> He sent = me the attached document explaining in detail how they work.=0A> Up until n= ow I knew of these things, and how they were used, but not=0A> much about t= heir foundations.=0A> =0A> I'm a simple guy, I just wanted to know if we co= uld incorporate this=0A> stuff in GPL'd software (e.g. the linux kernel), h= ow big the codebase=0A> needs to be, what APIs made the most sense, what th= e cpu overheads=0A> were, what code was already available, and the memory (= more broadly -=0A> capacity) requirement that vint's still working on...=0A= > =0A> ...=0A> =0A> "An identical IPR declaration was made by Qualcomm on t= he earlier=0A> generation of Raptor codes specified in IETF RFC 5053. One c= ould=0A> argue that one would like to use another variation of the fountain= =0A> codes, but honestly this would lead to the opposite of what David is= =0A> trying to achieve, which is interoperability =E2=80=94 we designed Rap= torQ=0A> specified in IETF RFC 6330 very carefully with essentially ideal= =0A> properties so that it could be used as the basis for a agreed upon and= =0A> widely deployed standard..."=0A> =0A> ... If there are hundreds of var= iants of weird fountain codes out=0A> there, how does that help with intero= perability? RaptorQ is part of=0A> the NextGen TV standard (ATSC 3.0) as we= ll, and the reason is for=0A> interoperability"=0AThat's why the license is= so very narrow to the case described in the RFC - only ATSC 3.0 transmissi= on can use this, Qualcomm reserves all other rights, as far as they have re= vealed.=0A> =0A> And lastly: " we at BitRIpple don=E2=80=99t own the IPR ri= ghts to RaptorQ, but=0A> I know how to interpret the IPR statement and I kn= ow we are just fine.=0A> In fact, BitRipple recently collaborated with Qual= comm and Verizon to=0A> provide the data delivery technology to support the= following:=0A>=0A =0AThe thing BitRipple describes may be open source, and= could even be GPL licensed (I don't know), =0Abut that would be because th= ere is a specific license for the entire distributed collection of GPL=0Aco= de.=0ATo make it into the Linux *kernel* (GPLv2) would probably require a n= ew license for the broader audience served by the Linux kernel's downstream= distributions. Again, IANAL.=0A =0A> Qualcomm CEO Cristiano Amon (in Hawai= i) and Verizon CTO Kyle Malady=0A> (in New Jersey) had the first ever 8K HD= R live video conferencing call=0A> between smartphones enabled by BitRipple= technology, which was the=0A> first demo during Cristiano=E2=80=99s keynot= e at the Qualcomm Snapdragon=0A> Technical Summit.=0A> =0A> See Qualcomm=E2= =80=99s post about this on LinkedIn (https://lnkd.in/g5xTaXDm)=0A> and my p= ost about this as well=0A> (https://www.linkedin.com/posts/michaelluby_watc= h-qualcomm-and-verizon-demo-worlds-first-activity-6871600498093506560-xl6R)= .=0A> There is also a Youtube video of the demo=0A> (https://www.youtube.co= m/watch?v=3DAu20PiI27Mg)."=0A> =0A=0A ------=_20211213161809000000_52174 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Since you asked about = GPL and fountain codes, I'll add another comment, both inline below, and in= a preface.

=0A

 

=0A

I = also had a side discussion with Mike Luby regarding IPR. He clarified that = the fountain code patents of Digital Fountain, Inc. were acquired by Qualco= mm entirely when Digital Fountain was acquired by Qualcomm, and also mentio= ned that there had been subsequent work at Qualcomm by employees and contra= ctors (and more patents have been filed, and some may be in process).

= =0A

 

=0A

He also would wis= h that others would use the term "fountain codes" rather than the term "rat= eless erasure codes". The two terms actually define two different, but larg= ely overlapping, sets of codes, with a lot of common properties. The codes = I described are arguably covered by either term.

=0A

 

=0A

Now I respect the law. I am not criticiz= ing Luby for using the patent law. If it had been me, because of the subjec= t matter I would not have sought patent rights, for the same reason that I = don't patent abstract algorithms or data structures - even if the USPTO wou= ld allow them. But that's a personal, political view.

=0A

 

=0A

IANAL, but with regard to GPL, my u= nderstanding is that all code licensed under GPL must not implement any pat= ented algorithm, unless there is a specific license that covers the specifi= c use in the code as it was when authorized. This was true based on court p= recedent in GPLv2, and is specifically included in GPLv3's license. So, the= contributor of any such code to a GPL project must obtain that license as = well as granting their assignment of copyright to the actual code. (please = don't trust me, ask a patent attorney, preferably one who also understands = copyright licenses and specializes in GPL).

=0A

&nbs= p;

=0A

To use anything that might infringe any of th= ose patents, other than the one case handled by the very narrow licenses fo= r Raptor and RaptorQ used within the limited cases described, you must nego= tiate a patent license. That's clear from Luby here and from my discussion = with him.

=0A

 

=0A

On S= unday, December 12, 2021 7:32pm, starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net sai= d:

=0A
=0A

> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2021 16:32:38 -0800
>= ; From: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
> To: starlink@lists.= bufferbloat.net
> Subject: [Starlink] raptor codes
> Messag= e-ID:
> <CAA93jw642KEqNAOja36KX2o+DYyE978F=3D=3DrpYD978J954-c=3D= bQ@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"=
>
> "Mike" Luby (formerly of qualcomm, now the CEO of bit= ripple) and I
> exchanged some email today.
>
> He= sent me the attached document explaining in detail how they work.
>= ; Up until now I knew of these things, and how they were used, but not
> much about their foundations.
>
> I'm a simple guy, = I just wanted to know if we could incorporate this
> stuff in GPL'd= software (e.g. the linux kernel), how big the codebase
> needs to = be, what APIs made the most sense, what the cpu overheads
> were, w= hat code was already available, and the memory (more broadly -
> ca= pacity) requirement that vint's still working on...
>
> ..= .
>
> "An identical IPR declaration was made by Qualcomm o= n the earlier
> generation of Raptor codes specified in IETF RFC 50= 53. One could
> argue that one would like to use another variation = of the fountain
> codes, but honestly this would lead to the opposi= te of what David is
> trying to achieve, which is interoperability = =E2=80=94 we designed RaptorQ
> specified in IETF RFC 6330 very car= efully with essentially ideal
> properties so that it could be used= as the basis for a agreed upon and
> widely deployed standard..."<= br />>
> ... If there are hundreds of variants of weird fountai= n codes out
> there, how does that help with interoperability? Rapt= orQ is part of
> the NextGen TV standard (ATSC 3.0) as well, and th= e reason is for
> interoperability"

=0A

That= 's why the license is so very narrow to the case described in the RFC - onl= y ATSC 3.0 transmission can use this, Qualcomm reserves all other rights, a= s far as they have revealed.
>
> And lastly: " we at BitRI= pple don=E2=80=99t own the IPR rights to RaptorQ, but
> I know how = to interpret the IPR statement and I know we are just fine.
> In fa= ct, BitRipple recently collaborated with Qualcomm and Verizon to
> = provide the data delivery technology to support the following:
>=0A

 

=0A

The thing BitRip= ple describes may be open source, and could even be GPL licensed (I don't k= now), 

=0A

but that would be because there is a= specific license for the entire distributed collection of GPL

=0A

code.

=0A

To make it into the Linux *= kernel* (GPLv2) would probably require a new license for the broader audien= ce served by the Linux kernel's downstream distributions. Again, IANAL.

= =0A

 

=0A

> Qualcomm CEO= Cristiano Amon (in Hawaii) and Verizon CTO Kyle Malady
> (in New J= ersey) had the first ever 8K HDR live video conferencing call
> bet= ween smartphones enabled by BitRipple technology, which was the
> f= irst demo during Cristiano=E2=80=99s keynote at the Qualcomm Snapdragon
> Technical Summit.
>
> See Qualcomm=E2=80=99s post a= bout this on LinkedIn (https://lnkd.in/g5xTaXDm)
> and my post abou= t this as well
> (https://www.linkedin.com/posts/michaelluby_watch-= qualcomm-and-verizon-demo-worlds-first-activity-6871600498093506560-xl6R).<= br />> There is also a Youtube video of the demo
> (https://www.= youtube.com/watch?v=3DAu20PiI27Mg)."
>

=0A
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