From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp104.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (smtp104.iad3a.emailsrvr.com [173.203.187.104]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 60D223B2A4 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2022 16:10:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from app69.wa-webapps.iad3a (relay-webapps.rsapps.net [172.27.255.140]) by smtp14.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id B6B2820FEC for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2022 16:10:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from deepplum.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by app69.wa-webapps.iad3a (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3C9C21116 for ; Sun, 6 Mar 2022 16:10:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by apps.rackspace.com (Authenticated sender: dpreed@deepplum.com, from: dpreed@deepplum.com) with HTTP; Sun, 6 Mar 2022 16:10:19 -0500 (EST) X-Auth-ID: dpreed@deepplum.com Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 16:10:19 -0500 (EST) From: "David P. Reed" To: "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_20220306161019000000_36308" Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Type: html In-Reply-To: References: <1646527180.51036626@apps.rackspace.com> X-Client-IP: 209.6.168.128 Message-ID: <1646601019.667431004@apps.rackspace.com> X-Mailer: webmail/19.0.13-RC X-Classification-ID: 73ebe5bc-8e61-4f74-8416-de6efb507a58-1-1 Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink deplyment in Ukraine X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2022 21:10:20 -0000 ------=_20220306161019000000_36308 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0AVery interesting info about where current ground stations are, but of co= urse Kyiv, Lviv, Kharkiv are close to some adjacent countries that already = have Starlink ground stations (didn't know they were up and running in Turk= ey).=0A =0ARegarding ground-level repeating, the radio horizon is very shor= t except in VHF where you can in principle bounce off the ionosphere. Don't= join the Flat Earth Society, the earth isn't very flat at all.=0A(yes, som= e small bands actually bend around the earth in the Troposhere, but bitrate= s feasible in that bandwidth is very poor. Maybe voice grade)=0A =0AMicrowa= ve multihop links require LOS and except from mountaintop to mountaintop, i= t's hard to maintain them cheaply - Wall St uses microwaves between NYC and= Chicago, because the latency is much lower number of microseconds than dir= ect fiber would be (little known fact about the difference between speed of= light in glass vs. air).=0A =0AThese technologies are "off the shelf" for = fixed wireless deployment, but if I were trying to maintain or build a quic= k replacement for existing cables using wireless, I suspect it would largel= y be too little, too late.=0A =0AI'm sure that we can deploy special networ= king technology to fuel a Molotov Cocktail brigade in both Ukraine and Russ= ia, for the greater glory of Nationalist Pride.=0A =0ABut honestly, technol= ogy doesn't solve social and political problems - at best it escalates them= .=0A =0ANaah, this is mostly Musk's time to promote Starlink, because it ca= n be somewhat useful as is, in the public imagination, if not so much in re= ality. (We'll see) However, any person seriously interested in preserving I= nternet connectivity in Uktraine would be focusing on other kinds of engine= ering - less showy, more practical. Already he is acting like he rules the = world in his other public commentary insulting Russia and promoting his roc= kets against Putin's rockets. He's really an asshole like Trump, and a loos= e cannon who thinks everything he thinks is right, and that he need not con= sult with anyone else about coordination and strategy.=0A =0AAnd sadly, I'm= afraid that because Musk wants to hog the limelight, and other Billionaire= s might decide to copy him, we'll end up with Megacorp level private warrio= rs viewing their role as saving the world for the billionaire class. I hope= that's not true. We already had that with Eric Prince and Blackwater decid= ing they should become high tech warriors to preserve theif view of the pro= per World Order.=0A =0APersonally, I've worked pretty much my whole life to= create an open, *inclusive* and neutral platform called the Internet among= all humans on the earth. It will be sad, indeed to see it militarized, eve= n by guerillas, no matter what their politics.=0A =0AOn Sunday, March 6, 20= 22 12:58am, "Larry Press" said:=0A=0A=0A=0AGround statio= ns in Turkey, Lithuania, and Poland are reachable from Kyiv. [ https://circ= leid.com/posts/20220301-spacex-starlink-service-in-ukraine-is-an-important-= government-asset ]( https://circleid.com/posts/20220301-spacex-starlink-ser= vice-in-ukraine-is-an-important-government-asset ). The one in Turkey is of= ten out of range.=0A=0AFrom: Starlink on behalf of David Lang =0ASent: Saturday, March 5, 2022= 5:02 PM=0ATo: David P. Reed =0ACc: starlink@lists.buf= ferbloat.net =0ASubject: Re: [Starlink] Sta= rlink deplyment in Ukraine=0A =0A=0AOn Sat, 5 Mar 2022, David P. Reed wrote= :=0A=0A > THis is a good discussion, and I hope for more.=0A > =0A > 1. I'm= really curious how well Starlink's bent-pipe architecture actually =0A > w= orks in a context like Ukraine where fiber and copper infrastructure are = =0A > vulnerable and less redundant than in a place like the UK. I'm not so= worried =0A > about the dishy's working or being targeted. They can be mov= ed and disguised. =0A > What is not being discussed here (or anywhere) is w= here the ground stations =0A > that the traffic must *all* traverse are, an= d the fact that they are Single =0A > Points of Failure, and must be nailed= down in places which are close enough to =0A > the dishy they serve, and a= lso fiber-backhauled into the Internet. This is a =0A > serious technical i= ssue that interests me, mostly because Starlink doesn't =0A > publish its t= echnical specs.=0A > =0A > So these ground stations for Ukrainian coverage = are where? Ukraine is a BIG =0A > area. It certainly won't be covered by on= e ground station. And it certainly =0A > can't be just an 18-wheeler with a= huge antenna on top, because it needs to be =0A > connected to a point-of-= presence with lots of capacity - the sum of all the =0A > dishy's peak load= s.=0A > =0A > I'm suspecting that some ground station is actually in Ukrain= e itself, but =0A > putting it in Kyiv just makes it a tempting target (lik= e a power station or =0A > water utility), and it is much more vulnerable a= nd visible to Russian troops =0A > in the area.=0A > =0A > Now Poland and M= oldova are potential sites that might cover part of Ukraine, =0A > but cert= ainly not that far into the country.=0A=0A I actually doubt that the ground= stations are in Ukraine, that would require =0A much more significant setu= p (think about the engineers flown out to installa =0A ground station to su= pport Tonga) and would be extremely vulnerable to =0A disruption.=0A=0A Rem= ember, service was turned on and dishys delivered in < 48 hours.=0A=0A disr= upting the ground stations in adjacent countries is a rather significant = =0A escalation.=0A=0A We don't know the full reach of a ground station, but= I suspect that some of the =0A limitations that people have been talking a= bout are as much software/regulations =0A as RF/hardware, and I would not b= e surprised if such restritions are being =0A relaxed a bit there.=0A=0A > = 2. I hope that Starlink isn't just doing this to get Musk in the news, but = =0A > actually wants to facilitate ongoing connectivity to the Internet, in= dependent =0A > of "sides". (as others here have noted, communications cont= rol is a very =0A > imprecise instrument when it is a tool of aggression - = "virtue signalling" by =0A > a billionaire who has been knowmid 1990's tryi= ng to bring Internet =0A > connectivity to poor people in Jamaica and poro = people in the West Bank each =0A > partly caused the deaths of a few people= we thought we were only helping. But =0A > that's a long story in each con= text).=0A > =0A > More seriously, if Musk is not covering much of Ukraine a= t all, and just =0A > shipping dishy's there, that's good, but I hope he do= esn't try to take credit =0A > for more than Starlink actually can do. I me= an it would also be nice if =0A > Mikrotik shipped in meshable WiFi, but th= at's of limited utility, even if the =0A > most clever hackers tried to cre= ate an outdoor mesh of them. The coverage =0A > would be very limited, and = you still need a non-WiFi path to the Internet to =0A > communicate over wi= de areas.=0A=0A So far he has not said anything about the use of them, alth= ough some people in =0A Ukraine had said they have them and are prepared to= use them when the wired =0A Internet is disrupted. I would not expect to h= ear that much about people using =0A them in remote areas yet. We'll probab= ly hear more about that weeks to months =0A later.=0A=0A David Lang ------=_20220306161019000000_36308 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Very interesting info = about where current ground stations are, but of course Kyiv, Lviv, Kharkiv = are close to some adjacent countries that already have Starlink ground stat= ions (didn't know they were up and running in Turkey).

=0A

 

=0A

Regarding ground-level repeating, = the radio horizon is very short except in VHF where you can in principle bo= unce off the ionosphere. Don't join the Flat Earth Society, the earth isn't= very flat at all.

=0A

(yes, some small bands actual= ly bend around the earth in the Troposhere, but bitrates feasible in that b= andwidth is very poor. Maybe voice grade)

=0A

 =

=0A

Microwave multihop links require LOS and except= from mountaintop to mountaintop, it's hard to maintain them cheaply - Wall= St uses microwaves between NYC and Chicago, because the latency is much lo= wer number of microseconds than direct fiber would be (little known fact ab= out the difference between speed of light in glass vs. air).

=0A

 

=0A

These technologies are "off = the shelf" for fixed wireless deployment, but if I were trying to maintain = or build a quick replacement for existing cables using wireless, I suspect = it would largely be too little, too late.

=0A

 =

=0A

I'm sure that we can deploy special networking = technology to fuel a Molotov Cocktail brigade in both Ukraine and Russia, f= or the greater glory of Nationalist Pride.

=0A

 = ;

=0A

But honestly, technology doesn't solve social = and political problems - at best it escalates them.

=0A

 

=0A

Naah, this is mostly Musk's time to p= romote Starlink, because it can be somewhat useful as is, in the public ima= gination, if not so much in reality. (We'll see) However, any person seriou= sly interested in preserving Internet connectivity in Uktraine would be foc= using on other kinds of engineering - less showy, more practical. Already h= e is acting like he rules the world in his other public commentary insultin= g Russia and promoting his rockets against Putin's rockets. He's really an = asshole like Trump, and a loose cannon who thinks everything he thinks is r= ight, and that he need not consult with anyone else about coordination and = strategy.

=0A

 

=0A

And = sadly, I'm afraid that because Musk wants to hog the limelight, and other B= illionaires might decide to copy him, we'll end up with Megacorp level priv= ate warriors viewing their role as saving the world for the billionaire cla= ss. I hope that's not true. We already had that with Eric Prince and Blackw= ater deciding they should become high tech warriors to preserve theif view = of the proper World Order.

=0A

 

=0A

Personally, I've worked pretty much my whole life to create an= open, *inclusive* and neutral platform called the Internet among all human= s on the earth. It will be sad, indeed to see it militarized, even by gueri= llas, no matter what their politics.

=0A

 

= =0A

On Sunday, March 6, 2022 12:58am, "Larry Press" <= ;lpress@csudh.edu> said:

=0A=0A
=0A
Ground stations in Turkey, Lithuania, and Poland are r= eachable from Kyiv. https://circleid.com/posts/20220301-spacex-starlink-serv= ice-in-ukraine-is-an-important-government-asset. The one in Turkey is o= ften out of range.
=0A
=0A
From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of = David Lang <david@lang.hm>
Sent: Saturday, Marc= h 5, 2022 5:02 PM
To: David P. Reed <dpreed@deeppl= um.com>
Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <sta= rlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: [Starlin= k] Starlink deplyment in Ukraine=0A
 
=0A
=0A=0A
On Sat, 5 Mar 2022, Dav= id P. Reed wrote:

> THis is a good discussion, and I hope fo= r more.
>
> 1. I'm really curious how well Starlink's be= nt-pipe architecture actually
> works in a context like Ukraine w= here fiber and copper infrastructure are
> vulnerable and less re= dundant than in a place like the UK. I'm not so worried
> about t= he dishy's working or being targeted. They can be moved and disguised.
> What is not being discussed here (or anywhere) is where the ground = stations
> that the traffic must *all* traverse are, and the fact= that they are Single
> Points of Failure, and must be nailed dow= n in places which are close enough to
> the dishy they serve, and= also fiber-backhauled into the Internet. This is a
> serious tec= hnical issue that interests me, mostly because Starlink doesn't
>= publish its technical specs.
>
> So these ground statio= ns for Ukrainian coverage are where? Ukraine is a BIG
> area. It = certainly won't be covered by one ground station. And it certainly
&= gt; can't be just an 18-wheeler with a huge antenna on top, because it need= s to be
> connected to a point-of-presence with lots of capacity = - the sum of all the
> dishy's peak loads.
>
>= I'm suspecting that some ground station is actually in Ukraine itself, but=
> putting it in Kyiv just makes it a tempting target (like a pow= er station or
> water utility), and it is much more vulnerable an= d visible to Russian troops
> in the area.
>
>= Now Poland and Moldova are potential sites that might cover part of Ukrain= e,
> but certainly not that far into the country.

I a= ctually doubt that the ground stations are in Ukraine, that would require <= br /> much more significant setup (think about the engineers flown out to i= nstalla
ground station to support Tonga) and would be extremely vuln= erable to
disruption.

Remember, service was turned on an= d dishys delivered in < 48 hours.

disrupting the ground stat= ions in adjacent countries is a rather significant
escalation.
=
We don't know the full reach of a ground station, but I suspect that= some of the
limitations that people have been talking about are as = much software/regulations
as RF/hardware, and I would not be surpris= ed if such restritions are being
relaxed a bit there.

&g= t; 2. I hope that Starlink isn't just doing this to get Musk in the news, b= ut
> actually wants to facilitate ongoing connectivity to the Int= ernet, independent
> of "sides". (as others here have noted, comm= unications control is a very
> imprecise instrument when it is a = tool of aggression - "virtue signalling" by
> a billionaire who h= as been knowmid 1990's trying to bring Internet
> connectivity to= poor people in Jamaica and poro people in the West Bank each
> p= artly caused the deaths of a few people we thought we were only helping. Bu= t
> that's a long story in each context).
>
> = More seriously, if Musk is not covering much of Ukraine at all, and just > shipping dishy's there, that's good, but I hope he doesn't try to= take credit
> for more than Starlink actually can do. I mean it = would also be nice if
> Mikrotik shipped in meshable WiFi, but th= at's of limited utility, even if the
> most clever hackers tried = to create an outdoor mesh of them. The coverage
> would be very l= imited, and you still need a non-WiFi path to the Internet to
> c= ommunicate over wide areas.

So far he has not said anything abo= ut the use of them, although some people in
Ukraine had said they ha= ve them and are prepared to use them when the wired
Internet is disr= upted. I would not expect to hear that much about people using
them = in remote areas yet. We'll probably hear more about that weeks to months later.

David Lang
=0A
=0A ------=_20220306161019000000_36308--