From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp75.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (smtp75.iad3a.emailsrvr.com [173.203.187.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B0F63CB37 for ; Tue, 30 Aug 2022 20:32:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from app50.wa-webapps.iad3a (relay-webapps.rsapps.net [172.27.255.140]) by smtp34.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id C86CA22BF2; Tue, 30 Aug 2022 20:32:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from deepplum.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by app50.wa-webapps.iad3a (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3220600BC; Tue, 30 Aug 2022 20:32:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by apps.rackspace.com (Authenticated sender: dpreed@deepplum.com, from: dpreed@deepplum.com) with HTTP; Tue, 30 Aug 2022 20:32:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Auth-ID: dpreed@deepplum.com Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2022 20:32:42 -0400 (EDT) From: "David P. Reed" To: "David Lang" Cc: "Brandon Butterworth" , "David Lang" , starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_20220830203242000000_56361" Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Type: html In-Reply-To: References: <1661878433.14064713@apps.rackspace.com> <6p5n9262-3745-pq31-5636-1rnon987o255@ynat.uz> <20220830220710.GA2653@sunf10.rd.bbc.co.uk> <356psp-6n4s-5677-2qs9-1r71r492no@ynat.uz> <20220830223712.GA2921@sunf10.rd.bbc.co.uk> <1661902136.38824194@apps.rackspace.com> X-Client-IP: 209.6.168.128 Message-ID: <1661905962.73086483@apps.rackspace.com> X-Mailer: webmail/19.0.18-RC X-Classification-ID: 541d1241-c5ae-4ea3-b6ac-fbf4c0abfebf-1-1 Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink "beam spread" X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2022 00:32:43 -0000 ------=_20220830203242000000_56361 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0AThen Elon Musk is making proposals in bad faith, because he is leading p= eople to believe that his system can do stuff it clearly cannot do.=0A =0AW= hich they proved when they failed to meet the requirements of the US rural = service funding program, after claiming they could.=0A =0AOn Tuesday, Augus= t 30, 2022 8:12pm, "David Lang" said:=0A=0A=0A=0A> I have n= o problems with people making technical arguments saying that there are=0A>= limitations on the service that Starlink can provide (I may argue technica= l=0A> specifics or point out things I think you miss, but I won't claim tha= t you are=0A> arguing in bad faith), but when someone then goes beyond that= and says that what=0A> it can provide is a level that's unacceptable to Am= ericans or dismissing it=0A> because fiber is better, then I'll respond and= say that the person is arguing in=0A> bad faith.=0A> =0A> David Lang=0A> = =0A> =0A> On Tue, 30 Aug 2022, David P. Reed wrote:=0A> =0A> > Date: Tue, 3= 0 Aug 2022 19:28:56 -0400 (EDT)=0A> > From: David P. Reed =0A> > To: Brandon Butterworth =0A> > Cc: David L= ang , Brandon Butterworth=0A> ,=0A> > = starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net=0A> > Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink "beam= spread"=0A> >=0A> >=0A> > I wasn't starting a discussion about Starlink th= e business. I was talking=0A> about Starlink the technology and the "dreams= " that people project onto that=0A> technology.=0A> >=0A> > I'm happy if th= e current customers are happy and remain happy. Just pointing=0A> out that = there are pretty severe limitations in the physical capabilities of the=0A>= technology of the satellites and dishys that will limit how many customers= can be=0A> served in an area.=0A> >=0A> > I was reacting to the idea Dave = Taht brought up that somehow the satellites=0A> can cover "more" area per s= atellite, if they go to a lower total bit rate (175 vs.=0A> 240 per antenna= on each satellite).=0A> >=0A> > I'm a radio engineer, trained in stuff lik= e phased array antenna designs, and=0A> power, etc. I'm also a communicatio= ns protocol engineer, trained in multiplexing=0A> techniques.=0A> >=0A> > I= 'm not saying Starlink engineers are incompetent, but I am saying that what= =0A> Musk (who despite the fact that he pretends to be an engineer is not o= ne, never=0A> has been one) has described in his visionary speeches is not = what Starlink is=0A> delivering today, and that's because it basically can'= t be delivered.=0A> ------=_20220830203242000000_56361 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Then Elon Musk is maki= ng proposals in bad faith, because he is leading people to believe that his= system can do stuff it clearly cannot do.

=0A

 = ;

=0A

Which they proved when they failed to meet the= requirements of the US rural service funding program, after claiming they = could.

=0A

 

=0A

On Tues= day, August 30, 2022 8:12pm, "David Lang" <david@lang.hm> said:
=

=0A
=0A

> = I have no problems with people making technical arguments saying that there= are
> limitations on the service that Starlink can provide (I may = argue technical
> specifics or point out things I think you miss, b= ut I won't claim that you are
> arguing in bad faith), but when som= eone then goes beyond that and says that what
> it can provide is a= level that's unacceptable to Americans or dismissing it
> because = fiber is better, then I'll respond and say that the person is arguing in> bad faith.
>
> David Lang
>
> > On Tue, 30 Aug 2022, David P. Reed wrote:
>
> >= Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2022 19:28:56 -0400 (EDT)
> > From: David P. = Reed <dpreed@deepplum.com>
> > To: Brandon Butterworth <= ;brandon@rd.bbc.co.uk>
> > Cc: David Lang <david@lang.hm&g= t;, Brandon Butterworth
> <brandon@rd.bbc.co.uk>,
> &= gt; starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > Subject: Re: [Starlink] S= tarlink "beam spread"
> >
> >
> > I wasn't= starting a discussion about Starlink the business. I was talking
>= about Starlink the technology and the "dreams" that people project onto th= at
> technology.
> >
> > I'm happy if the cur= rent customers are happy and remain happy. Just pointing
> out that= there are pretty severe limitations in the physical capabilities of the> technology of the satellites and dishys that will limit how many cu= stomers can be
> served in an area.
> >
> > I= was reacting to the idea Dave Taht brought up that somehow the satellites<= br />> can cover "more" area per satellite, if they go to a lower total = bit rate (175 vs.
> 240 per antenna on each satellite).
> &= gt;
> > I'm a radio engineer, trained in stuff like phased array= antenna designs, and
> power, etc. I'm also a communications proto= col engineer, trained in multiplexing
> techniques.
> ><= br />> > I'm not saying Starlink engineers are incompetent, but I am = saying that what
> Musk (who despite the fact that he pretends to b= e an engineer is not one, never
> has been one) has described in hi= s visionary speeches is not what Starlink is
> delivering today, an= d that's because it basically can't be delivered.
>

=0A
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