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[72.253.194.45]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id qn13-20020a17090b3d4d00b002b30ed225d4sm12032587pjb.24.2024.05.07.12.10.00 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 07 May 2024 12:10:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Eugene Y Chang Message-Id: <1779481A-0817-4F18-A0D7-A7A5AA0AF9D6@ieee.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_67BEA40D-D17B-4F22-AAD3-000C199B3940"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.8\)) Date: Tue, 7 May 2024 09:09:58 -1000 In-Reply-To: <3d6bdccf-e3d1-4f62-a029-25bfd1f458f5@indexexchange.com> Cc: Eugene Y Chang , Dave Taht via Starlink To: Dave Collier-Brown References: <3d6bdccf-e3d1-4f62-a029-25bfd1f458f5@indexexchange.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.8) Subject: Re: [Starlink] The "reasons" that bufferbloat isn't a problem X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 May 2024 19:10:03 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_67BEA40D-D17B-4F22-AAD3-000C199B3940 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A955C381-AE14-4074-B7F2-305AB7384E88" --Apple-Mail=_A955C381-AE14-4074-B7F2-305AB7384E88 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Dave, Thank you for calling attention to the RFC. I took a quick peek, and I = need to put more time into reading the whole doc. It feels very = intuitive. What I like is that it is written for incremental adoption. I will focus = on that in my next pass. It opens the door to be incrementally deployed = to pacify an influential squeaky wheel. I like the possibility that a = happy squeaky wheel becomes a role model attracting more squeaky wheels = until it makes more sense to just adopt broad deployment. If you read my = earlier emails, you know I am in the hunt for an influential squeaky = wheel. :P Anticipating more discussion in this direction, are there core router = vendors that have a favorable view of L4S? Are there router = implementations just waiting to be turned on? Gene ---------------------------------------------- Eugene Chang > On May 7, 2024, at 2:46 AM, Dave Collier-Brown via Starlink = wrote: >=20 > It has an RFC at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9330/ = > I read it as a way to rapidly find the available bandwidth without the = TCP "sawtooth". The paper cites fc_codel and research based on it. >=20 > I suspect My Smarter Colleagues know more (;-)) >=20 > --dave >=20 >=20 > On 2024-05-07 08:13, David Fern=C3=A1ndez via Starlink wrote: >> Is L4S a solution to bufferbloat? I have read that gamers are happy = with it. >>=20 >> Sorry, I read it here, in Spanish: >> = https://www.adslzone.net/noticias/operadores/retardo-videojuegos-nokia-vod= afone = >>=20 >> Regards, >>=20 >> David F. >>=20 >> Date: Tue, 7 May 2024 06:50:41 -0400 >> From: Rich Brown > >> To: Eugene Y Chang > >> Cc: Sebastian Moeller >, = Colin_Higbie >> , Dave = Taht via Starlink >> > >> Subject: Re: [Starlink] The "reasons" that bufferbloat isn't a = problem >> Message-ID: <175CC5C3-F70A-49E8-A84D-87E24C04EABD@gmail.com = > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" >>=20 >> Hi Gene, >>=20 >> > On May 6, 2024, at 8:38 PM, Eugene Y Chang > wrote: >> > >> > It seems like you signed off on this challenge. Don=E2=80=99t do = that. Help give me the tools to push this to the next level. >>=20 >> Not at all - I'm definitely signed up for this. But I collected all = these points so we can be clear-eyed about the objections that people = cite. >>=20 >> Bufferbloat definitely exists. And there are straightforward = technical solutions. And as you say, our challenge is to find a way to = build the case for broad adoption of these techniques. >>=20 >> Best regards, >>=20 >> Rich >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: = > >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net = >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink = > -- > David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify > System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest > dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com = | -- Mark = Twain >=20 > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, = including any and all attachments, contains confidential information = intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any = dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly = prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have received = this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender immediately by = return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and = deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not constitute an = express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electronic = means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or = an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this = telecommunication are subject to legal review and the completion of = formal documentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in = writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --Apple-Mail=_A955C381-AE14-4074-B7F2-305AB7384E88 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Dave,
Thank you for calling attention to the = RFC. I took a quick peek, and I need to put more time into reading the = whole doc. It feels very intuitive.

What I like is that it is written for = incremental adoption. I will focus on that in my next pass. It opens the = door to be incrementally deployed to pacify an influential squeaky = wheel. I like the possibility that a happy squeaky wheel becomes a role = model attracting more squeaky wheels until it makes more sense to just = adopt broad deployment. If you read my earlier emails, you know I am in = the hunt for an influential squeaky wheel. :P

Anticipating more discussion in this = direction, are there core router vendors that have a favorable view of =  L4S? Are there router implementations just waiting to be turned = on?

Gene
----------------------------------------------
Eugene Chang




On May 7, 2024, at 2:46 AM, Dave Collier-Brown via Starlink = <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

It has an RFC at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9330/

I read it = as a way to rapidly find the available bandwidth without the TCP = "sawtooth". The paper cites fc_codel and research based on it.

I suspect My Smarter Colleagues know more = (;-))

--dave

 
On 2024-05-07 08:13, David Fern=C3=A1ndez = via Starlink wrote:
Is L4S a solution to bufferbloat? I have read that = gamers are happy with it.

Sorry, I read it here, in Spanish:
https://www.adslzone.net/noticias/operador= es/retardo-videojuegos-nokia-vodafone

Regards,

David F.

Date: Tue, 7 May 2024 06:50:41 -0400
From: Rich Brown <richb.hanover@gmail.com>
To: Eugene Y Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.org>
Cc: Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>, Colin_Higbie
        <CHigbie1@Higbie.name>, = Dave Taht via Starlink
        <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: [Starlink] The "reasons" that bufferbloat isn't a = problem
Message-ID: <175CC5C3-F70A-49E8-A84D-87E24C04EABD@gmail= .com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"

Hi Gene,

> On May 6, 2024, at 8:38 PM, Eugene Y Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.org> wrote:
>
> It seems like you signed off on this challenge. Don=E2=80=99t do = that. Help give me the tools to push this to the next level.

Not at all - I'm definitely signed up for this. But I collected all = these points so we can be clear-eyed about the objections that people = cite.

Bufferbloat definitely exists. And there are straightforward technical = solutions. And as you say, our challenge is to find a way to build the = case for broad adoption of these techniques.

Best regards,

Rich
-------------- next part --------------
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_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.=
net
https://lists.buf=
ferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

--=20
David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
dave.collier-brown@in=
dexexchange.com |              -- Mark Twain

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND = DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, including any and = all attachments, contains confidential information intended only for the = person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or = disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of = confidentiality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, = please notify the sender immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and deleted items folders. This = telecommunication does not constitute an express or implied agreement to = conduct transactions by electronic means, nor does it constitute a = contract offer, a contract amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this telecommunication = are subject to legal review and the completion of formal documentation = and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been = signed by an authorized signatory.

_______________________________________________
Starlink = mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

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