From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Authentication-Results: mail.toke.dk; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=; dkim=pass header.d=gmx.de header.i=moeller0@gmx.de; arc=none (Message is not ARC signed); dmarc=pass (Used From Domain Record) header.from=gmx.de policy.dmarc=quarantine Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) by mail.toke.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A48997073AB for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2025 10:00:36 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1759132835; x=1759737635; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=G4SI13tl92wlfUFsVUJ/WbKNAc9rUCNsLdxy3mViz1I=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id: References:To:cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from: message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=PcxKiCLjCoJ5AstZJObWukWDSNwzy1VD5cLRkEPZK8Sy8evRChN5mkS89jpDb+0D lKIdjFI6lzVqUn4JCilHREJ99BDnAN4e6lTGDqYEB7RvUSvk5C31X2rS7Z3fLCq4Y 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administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list Subject: [Starlink] Re: SCONE, bandwidth indeterminacy and network to host signals (was Re: Re: Starlink Digest, Vol 53, Issue 14) List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Hi David, > On 29. Sep 2025, at 09:37, David Fern=C3=A1ndez via Starlink = wrote: >=20 > Sebastian, I would appreciate a lot if you can be more concrete on = what are > these "solutions are already out there, instead of the maximum signal = tell > each and every packet about the maximum of the relative capacity usage > along a path, now the sender can track and extrapolate the change of = that > capacity and ideally exit slow start, before over extending the = capacity." Fair point, let me post=20 E.g. Poseidon: https://www.usenix.org/system/files/nsdi23-wang-weitao.pdf or this: = https://web.stanford.edu/~sarslan/files/Switches_Know_The_Exact_Amount_of_= Congestion___BufferSizingWorkshop.pdf as an example... there are more, there was even an ID regarding this, = but the IETF was pretty hostile so people moved on to to among others = ultraethernet. What these proposals/experiments/solutions have in common is the = realisation that veridical information about a path's bottleneck as = timely as possible is the special sauce that allows fast reaction to = changes. Now, some of this is going to be hard to implement over the existing = internet, but hand on heart, so is SCONE. Here is the kicker, if you actually track the changes in bottleneck = capacity and compare these against your own rate or intended rate = increases you will be able to actually extrapolate when you reach that = capacity and hence can do a better job of not over-committing too much = date into the network. But to do this you really want per-packet = multi-bit information about the path so you can react in a timely = fashion to changes. This, by the way, is also why I consider L4S too = little too late, this is NOT the desired per-packet multi-bit signal, = in a sense it can be seen as a multi-bit information dithered across = multiple packets from undetermined flows. But I stop this tangent here, unless you have more question. > AFAIK, the objective of SCONE is " improve slow-start in general", not = only > for video, but I must confess I am not following it closely. Not seeing that objective clearly in the SCONE group/working group or = ID, but I might have overlooked that. >=20 > For video there is the Media Over QUIC IETF group, so I wonder, if the > SCONE is only for video, why it has not been just discussed there, as > another feature. Honestly, that is how the IETF operates (with a bit of luck things will = get coordinated a bit better if overl=C3=B6apping IDs reach more mature = state)... but at least the SCONE group's goals are formulated = generically and not focussed on video (or on slow-start for that = matter), but that tells little about the underlaying motivation to make = that specific pig get airborne... I have zero p=C3=BCroblems, accepting that this might be mobile carriers = that desire to flub network neutrality requirements (or that operate in = areas without such regulations) >=20 > Regards, >=20 > David >=20 > Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2025 08:08:15 +0200 >> From: Sebastian Moeller >> Subject: [Starlink] Re: Starlink Digest, Vol 53, Issue 14 >> To: Michael Richardson >> Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 29. Sep 2025, at 00:58, Michael Richardson via Starlink < >> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> David Fern=C3=A1ndez via Starlink wrote: >>>> I understand that SCONE info about maximum possible bandwidth >> (bottleneck >>>> maximum possible bandwidth, not zero, of course) available on the = path >>>> between a QUIC client and server is not to define a steady state >> (although >>>> it could be), but may be better used to set the size of the initial >> burst >>>> of packets after a connection is established, during the slow start >> phase, >>>> to a value that can be more optimal than just a fixed value like 10 = (RFC >>>> 6928), which was updated as networks became faster (with more >>>> capacity). >>>=20 >>> No, that's not the goal as I understand it. >>> It's to tell the client that asking for 4K video is not going to = work. >>=20 >> However that is a question that actually involves rate-control and = IMHO it >> woukld be better to improve slow-start in general than to taylor a = bespoke >> solution for just video streaming over QUIC. >>=20 >>> Yes, it might be able to get an initial few seconds of 4K, but then = the >> burst >>> tolerances (token buckets, etc.) of the network will be exhausted, = and >> the 4K >>> will begin to fail. >>=20 >> I keep repeating this, but that solutions are already out there, = instead >> of the maximum signal tell each and every packet about the maximum of = the >> relative capacity usage along a path, now the sender can track and >> extrapolate the change of that capacity and ideally exit slow start, = before >> over extending the capacity. >>=20 >>> The video will then pause/skip/.. and the client will go back to 2K. >>> Lather. Rinse. Repeat. >>>=20 >>>> The advantage of QUIC vs. TCP for web browsing should be an = increased >>>> interactivity, less RTTs to do connections, more responsiveness of >> sites, >>>> less lag and latency, although it seems people is not really = noticing >> the >>>> difference after sites start using HTTP/3 vs. HTTP/2. >>>=20 >>> Probably the most important thing is that it gets rid of head of = queue >> blocking. >>>=20 >>>> For example, today, the following site was reported as recently = starting >>>> using HTTP/3: >>>> Pokemon.com (https://w3techs.com/sites/info/pokemon.com) >>>=20 >>>> If anybody made a survey to usual Pokemon site visitors, I wonder = if >> they >>>> noticed that change. >>>=20 >>> When I think about QUIC, I think about PsyDuck for some reason. >>> When I think about TCP, I think about JigglyPuff. >>> Or maybe Kirby (not a pokemon). >>> And, when I think about UUCP, I think about Thomas the Tank Engine. >>> Yes, I was a parent over the last 20 years. >>=20 >> :) >>=20 >>>=20 >>> -- >>> ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh >> networks [ >>> ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT >> architect [ >>> ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on >> rails [ >>> _______________________________________________ >>=20 >>=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net