From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Authentication-Results: mail.toke.dk; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=; dkim=pass header.d=gmx.de header.i=moeller0@gmx.de; arc=none (Message is not ARC signed); dmarc=pass (Used From Domain Record) header.from=gmx.de policy.dmarc=quarantine Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) by mail.toke.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7816B935C7A for ; Sat, 08 Nov 2025 19:12:49 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1762625566; x=1763230366; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=4UVxhp+6D0PcZtXjVOWmjHhOyXOA3RlVdQWsGv0O3bk=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id: References:To:cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from: message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=f7L7XuN1I+Gdir1WdbZ7h5WiVKD1vW8pL+XwDcbEPiO7DMT2FvRYhn1RT7thSCyj InFNU42rmzValfrQuF7U1gLdnxHvZ3UD93hSBWW2inx2YUIJuN+i2pLF4/9KPV6dK 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<3934C9BE-EED5-4DF7-9451-E438E0FEFE3E@connectivitycap.com> <700f5e50-69b9-4a73-96a6-d097eb67bce2@rogers.com> To: David Collier-Brown X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.700.81.1.3) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Q+DaCUkU23KGku/h2YMvyv0yHoB3pLW7iQWYSC8lbYSocplUFHD 7mhNlrHn19RVk/U5U2de/6jKrBeHp+vSdG6VwU9+fvBZ36Ghdvh1sJiqM7yKQI2jBdd8nTu D0vJRIgHF15S4vxtzbugq4GHZ7DEhWAwF//BZf+6Hy0QyydLya9/q9AyV11KcCRkNOcUjq2 FGe0q61mI7zPAVwl6XrIw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:yhuiUKkaTJ0=;S36aJnZ+05b/HWoYA058CJmEGl0 J/YriLtUdupgf+SgjyLr5gtBoqKBov2ShkBoFpIdXrCOeekGDUjk8//WDqVdziq+dOPZ5RK5v Ics0rvcHIVdzBsVqfNWiDDLUBLLR1SARuo1r06XiWiu5ZZ4QxftgxcDOP4xA+Wkj9uDNTn+c6 ceJOtwkJkpxMmiq0ILOWn2hdsmgMtlakk+ezw9hK3R5PM8qrprjFg8aUZPbklaMDSqx1hE8hj tQ9NbzN7TiSwaFGphC2XDxVaM5T6L90nzu2owTSiniQzXCUTdPBoSVz5iNgaLKl4awrdEWsq/ GZczPKloHTj3PGILdaSjXq0eCnmZoa4PyqsRe/HI6P+MQqpnYzZZoKwQldbEaYk6hh9LIACT/ kiRup0IRSjez1FGdQyNOCiLmVQ0K1N3Lw2gqNwA0+jkBtcesSrovsdo2y/A6rt2b41hFlruw/ 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PssPutheH+7YBd8BsZ51/R55qEGdrSXwkj8CMZYzRwjpuSltJwbe0GLNpMBQ== Message-ID-Hash: 3TRSXJDPNM2QWZDJYZ4CSPDRTUORA5NJ X-Message-ID-Hash: 3TRSXJDPNM2QWZDJYZ4CSPDRTUORA5NJ X-MailFrom: moeller0@gmx.de X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; loop; banned-address; emergency; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list Subject: [Starlink] Re: [LibreQoS] Re: Re: Keynote: QoE/QoS - Bandwidth Is A Lie! at WISPAPALOOZA 2025 (October 16) List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Hi David, > On 8. Nov 2025, at 19:04, David Collier-Brown via Starlink = wrote: >=20 > A niggle: Canada has bad experience with only two competing network = providers in a given province. We got, and get, duopolies. In my case, I = can have Bell or Rogers, one of their fronts (eg, Fido), or menbert of = different provinces' duopolies (Telus). >=20 > I quite strongly recommend a minimum of three competing providers If two providers already manage to collude, why do yo believe three will = be less likely to achieve that? >=20 > --dave >=20 > On 11/8/25 12:03, J Pan via Starlink wrote: >> yes, availability (at least two competing network providers with >> reliable services), affordability (so the competition to bring the >> price and cost down) and applicability to modern internet = applications >> (video streaming, conferencing and gaming in addition to email and = web >> browsing) shall be the user-centric metrics in addition to = throughput, >> latency/jitter, packet loss, etc >> -- >> J Pan, UVic CSc, ECS566, 250-472-5796 (NO VM), Pan@UVic.CA, = Web.UVic.CA/~pan >>=20 >> On Sat, Nov 8, 2025 at 8:00=E2=80=AFAM dan = wrote: >>> I'm starting to see the signs that raw bandwidth is starting to lose >>> it's dominance for marketing. It's still the clear #1 ask but price >>> is rapidly overtaking speed for our customer requests. >>>=20 >>> I believe we've hit this era's threshold on throughput needs and >>> people have started to notice that 'more' doesn't feel like a faster >>> service. >>>=20 >>> one common scenario that we are using to win customers, in = combination >>> with facebook testimonials, is that people have bad experiences with >>> wifi and they order a faster service from cable/fiber company and = the >>> wifi just gets worse. This scenario I think is incredibly common = and >>> seems to be a catalyst for 'speed isn't everything'. We come in = with >>> 50-500Mbps of service and solid whole-home wifi and they are >>> converted. >>>=20 >>> I hope we're not to far off from having 'speed' be just a feature, = not >>> the entire story. >>>=20 >>> and yes, we QoE or service with cake via libreqos which is the >>> difference between great service and inadequate service IMO. >>>=20 >>> On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 12:50=E2=80=AFPM J Pan via LibreQoS >>> wrote: >>>> marketing is even worse. some claim 200mbps because 150mbps down = and >>>> 50mbps up at peak data rate. of course, this is not the only = problem >>>> in telecom, but likely the worst >>>>=20 >>>> nevertheless, there are stats such as 10% inflation for food and = 20% >>>> for gas, so in total 30% ;-) at this rate, any numbers can be = floating >>>> around but none are telling the truth ;-) >>>> -- >>>> J Pan, UVic CSc, ECS566, 250-472-5796 (NO VM), Pan@UVic.CA, = Web.UVic.CA/~pan >>>>=20 >>>> On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 10:55=E2=80=AFAM Jim Forster = wrote: >>>>> Exactly so. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Consumer expectations and service provider marketing may be = influenced by memories of experience when transmission delay did matter. = At one time I was very happy with my home ISDN connection, and even = shared it with my neighbor. At about 128kbs, it was three orders of = magnitude slower than my home fiber link. I=E2=80=99ve not run the = numbers but I=E2=80=99m pretty sure transimission speed mattered for = video, even for crummy quality video, So then when I learned a bit = about digital video, and cable=E2=80=99s 64 QAM 27mbps channels, I got = excited and thought, =E2=80=9Cwow, they could deliver 1mbps service! = And wouldn=E2=80=99t it be cool to have 1M home online at 10x the speed = of ISDN?=E2=80=9D. It was cool! And two more orders of magnitude = later, here we are. >>>>>=20 >>>>> =E2=80=94 Jim >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Nov 7, 2025, at 12:52=E2=80=AFPM, J Pan wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> latency is based on round-trip time, and one-way delay includes >>>>> transmission delay, propagation delay, queuing delay and = processing >>>>> delay. bandwidth does affect transmission delay (or serialization >>>>> delay), propagation delay is determined by the link length and the >>>>> "travel" speed of the signal, queuing delay is the hardest part = and >>>>> affected by the buffer bloat a lot, and processing delay is = another >>>>> variable. of course, transmission delay takes less and less = portion of >>>>> the end-to-end delay now due to higher and higher "speed" links >>>>>=20 >>>>> consumers may mistaken the speed of the link (the "width" of their >>>>> pipe) as how fast their internet is (the "length" of the pipe), = due to >>>>> the poor terminology we have been using ;-) >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> LibreQoS mailing list -- libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to = libreqos-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net >=20 > --=20 > David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify > System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest > davecb@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net