From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail.lang.hm (unknown [66.167.227.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90F603B29D for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 14:33:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dlang-mobile (unknown [10.2.2.70]) by mail.lang.hm (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8718E15052F; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 11:33:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 11:33:54 -0700 (PDT) From: David Lang To: Vint Cerf cc: Dave Taht , Starlink list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1ro0q1n3-s460-9r2r-p7rn-526q1qq9qp27@ynat.uz> References: <8735bqpq1r.wl-jch@irif.fr> <38522124-6d3b-4ac8-bb20-92bfa35dc9fe@Spark> <87tu46o8e3.wl-jch@irif.fr> <3ea89257-d5f8-4fa9-a90a-c73d49d2a9e2@Spark> <87r0zao0f0.wl-jch@irif.fr> <398208s8-6080-r8q7-s6rs-q9np11428n3o@ynat.uz> <12bfd01d8e001$03cf0e40$0b6d2ac0$@evslin.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; BOUNDARY="===============0847022665368610650==" Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrainian army? 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The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --===============0847022665368610650== Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT and it's worth remembering that it's not just being used for military C&C, it's being used for (almost) all Internet access through the country, normal telcom, Hospitals, community access, etc. That will add up to a lot (and the 7TB of use was also back in May) David Lang On Sun, 16 Oct 2022, Vint Cerf via Starlink wrote: > if you need real-time for video and control, that can add up ... > > v > > > On Sun, Oct 16, 2022 at 2:01 PM Dave Taht via Starlink < > starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> On Sun, Oct 16, 2022 at 10:57 AM Nathan Owens via Starlink >> wrote: >>> >>> Elon posted a graph, it showed a peak of 7000GB per unit time, the only >> one that makes sense to me is per hour, which is 15Gbps peak -- not a huge >> amount. >> >> You really don't need much data for C&C traffic. You do need a fairly >> reliable uplink, but the observed jitter on an otherwise idle link was >> in the few ms range. >> >> GPSD has a udp output mode, too. >> >> (btw, to my knowledge, starlink has not enabled any network interfaces >> to the outside to their internal on-dish gps chip, which >> when I was whinging about it, would provide perfect time to >> downstream clients, either natively or via ntp) >> >> It's one very short message, per second. >> >>> >>> On Sun, Oct 16, 2022 at 10:50 AM Steve Stroh via Starlink < >> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> I’m speculating, but given that Starlink is THE communications >> infrastructure for much of Ukraine, then the scaling of the ground stations >> to provide that level of service must be a significant expense. To provide >> that much bandwidth would require deploying a lot of ground stations, each >> with expensive hardware, power infrastructure (including backup), fiber >> backhaul, skilled labor, and no small amount of fiber bandwidth that SpaceX >> has to pay SOMEONE to provide. >>>> >>>> Not to mention that anything SpaceX deploys to support Ukraine is a >> resource that it could have used for speeding up revenue generation in >> lucrative markets like the US. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at 12:41 David Lang via Starlink < >> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> If spacex is providing the high-end/business grade service to all >> terminals >>>>> that they normally charge $4500/month for, reimbursement should be >> based on >>>>> that. >>>>> >>>>> Base it on the normal service pricing, not on cost-plus (if it were >> based on >>>>> cost-plus it would be an utter windfall for SpaceX as they are still >> in the >>>>> stage of building the service, and so there is a much higher spend >> rate to >>>>> expand the service at this point than the ongoing maintinance of it) >>>>> >>>>> while the satellites do support that area, they also support the rest >> of the >>>>> service, and if they weren't supporting Ukraine, there wouldn't be any >> fewer >>>>> satellites launched. >>>>> >>>>> I've seen too many games played with 'fully loaded costs' (sometimes >> backfiring >>>>> on the people tinkering with the numbers), and so it's something I >> watch out >>>>> for. >>>>> >>>>> lies, damn lies, and statistics, 'fully loaded costs' tend to be heavy >> on >>>>> statistics ;-) >>>>> >>>>> David Lang >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, 14 Oct 2022, tom@evslin.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Putting aside the timing of Elon's complaint about cost right after >> the spat over his Ukrainian "peace plan", It is certainly reasonable for >> Starlink to get paid like other weapon suppliers who didn't give out free >> samples to prove their usefulness, Given that they should be reimbursed >> based on loaded cost plus profit like anyone else. I'm sure the other >> suppliers allocate their overhead costs when pricing weapon systems. They'd >> be out of business otherwise. The satellites are part of Starlink's fixed >> overhead so a portion of their costs should be allocated to service >> provided in Ukraine. >>>>>> >>>>>> All that being said, it would be terrible if Ukraine got less than >> the best support that can be provided. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Starlink On Behalf >> Of David Lang via Starlink >>>>>> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 1:28 PM >>>>>> To: Kurtis Heimerl >>>>>> Cc: Starlink list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the >> Ukrainian army? >>>>>> >>>>>> Having now read more info on this, less significant than the $80m >> total figure is the $20m/month figure he quoted. With 15k dishes as the >> figure that they sent (separate from whatever has been purchased on the >> commercial side), that works out to 1.3k/dish/month, which is very high. >>>>>> >>>>>> now, not being able to deploy reliable ground stations inside >> Ukraine could be driving up costs, plus the ongoing battle against jamming. >> But in his tweet he also cites satellite costs, which should not be >> allocated as "Ukraine related" >>>>>> costs (and I don't think the cyberdefense and jamming defense work >> should be >>>>>> either) >>>>>> >>>>>> David Lang >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, 14 Oct 2022, Kurtis Heimerl via Starlink wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> This thread (https://twitter.com/dim0kq/status/1580827171903635456) >>>>>>> strongly argues that Starlink is largely paid for their service, at >>>>>>> least on the consumer side. I imagine there are significant >>>>>>> operational expenses in dealing with the various actors involved but >>>>>>> not on the basic model. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at 9:06 AM Juliusz Chroboczek via Starlink >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In essence, once you give something away for free, not even >> setting >>>>>>>>> the expectation that it’s a “freemium” model, it’s very hard to >> get >>>>>>>>> out of it. If you then claim your costs are way higher than what >>>>>>>>> analysis work out, eyebrows raise way above the hairline. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Uh. Hmm. >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Starlink mailing list >>>>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Starlink mailing list >>>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Starlink mailing list >>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Steve Stroh N8GNJ (he / him / his) >>>> Editor >>>> Zero Retries Newsletter - https://zeroretries.substack.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Starlink mailing list >>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Starlink mailing list >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >> >> >> >> -- >> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: >> >> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz >> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >> > > > --===============0847022665368610650==--