From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from rellim.com (spidey.rellim.com [204.17.205.8]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F2A33B29E for ; Mon, 19 Dec 2022 19:50:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from spidey.rellim.com (rellim.com [IPv6:2001:470:e815::19]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by rellim.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 957A92003CB; Mon, 19 Dec 2022 16:50:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2022 16:50:06 -0800 From: "Gary E. Miller" To: Oleg Kutkov via Starlink Message-ID: <20221219165006.0473840d@spidey.rellim.com> In-Reply-To: <9ab1381a-fe61-0e57-55bd-19fe10876a40@olegkutkov.me> References: <41798860-aac5-7f36-3def-76c3400182a2@olegkutkov.me> <9c5a301a-fd7f-ea34-bc29-34053341f786@auckland.ac.nz> <9ab1381a-fe61-0e57-55bd-19fe10876a40@olegkutkov.me> Organization: Rellim X-Mailer: Claws Mail 4.1.1 (GTK 3.24.35; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Sig_/qXD.K3SY5tOCGsX8MdWqoOa"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink terminal detector X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 00:50:13 -0000 --Sig_/qXD.K3SY5tOCGsX8MdWqoOa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yo Oleg! Thanks for the update. Our hearts go out to all of you there. RGDS GARY On Tue, 20 Dec 2022 02:46:55 +0200 Oleg Kutkov via Starlink wrote: > Greeting from Kyiv, where I'm sitting without electricity and proper=20 > internet connectivity. Thanks to dozens of Russian missiles and drone=20 > attacks very last night. >=20 > No one was forcing them to attack our country and destroy our cities > and energy infrastructure. That's what they are doing right now, in > the middle of the winter. They killed, raped, and kidnapped thousands > of civilians. Recently discovered children torture rooms on liberated=20 > territories. It's pure terrorism. >=20 > So they have a really simple choice - do something with their crazy=20 > autocrat or come here as occupants and suffer in the mud and cold > doing military crimes. >=20 > At the same time, we have no choice here in Ukraine. We must protect > our lives and country. Sometimes it feels like we are solving their > problem with their government. Sadly, it takes so many lives... > The main difference is that in Ukraine, no one is hunting for > conscripts with the police. And are there different legal ways to > avoid conscription. We have a lot of military and civilian > volunteers. Everyone is trying to do something to help and save the > future. >=20 >=20 > Sorry for off-topic. >=20 > --- >=20 > The Dishy is easy to camouflage. And there is no easy way to detect=20 > directional Ku band transmission. We made different kinds of > measurements. So it is up to WiFi. The solution is currently rolling > out on Starlink routers. >=20 > On 12/20/22 01:34, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink wrote: > > > > Greetings from Hiroshima where, on August 6, 1945, at this time in > > the morning, I would've had a couple of minutes left to live where > > I am sitting and typing this now. Makes one think. Neither Russia > > nor Ukraine respect the right to conscientious objection. Seeing my=20 > > colleagues at work who are from mixed Russian and Ukrainian > > families makes it hit home daily what war means to them and their > > loved ones. Having to worry about a top student of mine whose > > Russian parents' business is affected by the war, and who may not > > be able to pay his international student fees next year, and may > > have to return home to face conscription and the meat grinder. He > > could be one of those who we see gleeful YouTube videos of, having > > bombs dropped on them from drones, with no shelter, wriggling in > > pain as they take their last breath. Makes me forget the price tag > > of the missiles for the moment. > > > > That said, the Starlink WiFi router is of course only one RF source > > a detector might want to zero in on, and as it's been pointed out > > it's easily camouflaged or spoofed on the RF side of things. The > > satcom signal off the Dishy is another, and it's not as easily > > spoofed. However, Dishy will point itself where it can see most > > relay-capable satellites, which in Ukraine will be in a western or > > northwestern direction. Which means pointing the signal away from > > Russia and the detectors in most cases. Russians are by and large > > clever folks (never judge a people by its autocratic leaders) and > > are probably well aware of this. So we can book that military blog > > entry under fog of war misinformation. > > > > On 20/12/2022 5:07 am, Dave Taht via Starlink wrote: =20 > >> On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 7:54 AM Eric via Starlink > >> wrote: =20 > >> > > >> > Get a bunch of US$3 ESP8266 devices, set them up in AP mode with > >> > =20 > >> spoofed Starlink MACs and BSSIDs, power them with solar cells + > >> old vape-pen batteries and spread them all over the place. There's=20 > >> nothing like causing the other side to shoot $50k missiles at a > >> $15 decoy. > >> > >> Well, the difference in amount of traffic generated by an idle AP > >> vs one in use would be large, and the interference > >> caused by simulating traffic on the other APs a pita, but narrow > >> channels and a bunch of APs does thin the herd. > >> > >> Meshy mode, at least adhoc, has fewer identifying signatures in the > >> packet header, making an "AP" less obvious. > >> =20 > >> > > >> > ------- Original Message ------- > >> > On Sunday, December 18th, 2022 at 20:49, David Lang via Starlink > >> > =20 > >> wrote: =20 > >> > > >> > =20 > >> > > and change the name of the starlink wifi so it doesn't stand > >> > > out =20 > >> as much. =20 > >> > > > >> > > David Lang > >> > > > >> > > On Mon, 19 Dec 2022, Oleg Kutkov via Starlink wrote: > >> > > =20 > >> > > > From the beginning, the general rule is don't use Starlink > >> > > > WiFi. Or hide the router somewhere to reduce RF emissions. > >> > > > > >> > > > We have developed a set of rules and recommendations about =20 > >> using a PoE =20 > >> > > > injector or bypassing the Starlink router. > >> > > > Unfortunately, a lot of people ignore safety. > >> > > > > >> > > > But there are some countermeasures on the way. > >> > > > > >> > > > On 12/19/22 05:03, Oleg Kutkov via Starlink wrote: > >> > > > =20 > >> > > > > Actually, there is nothing special. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > You can capture WiFi beacons and get a BSSID with a good =20 > >> directional =20 > >> > > > > antenna. 10 - 15 km it's not a problem. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > They are filtering Starlink router BSSID to figure out > >> > > > > that =20 > >> somewhere =20 > >> > > > > there is Starlink. > >> > > > > Starlink WiFi router uses Tibro corp. (74:24: prefix). > >> > > > > On 12/19/22 04:41, Dave Taht via Starlink wrote: > >> > > > > =20 > >> > > > > > Starlink detector boasted about... 10km range. =20 > >> > > > > >> > > > =20 > >> https://www.notebookcheck.net/Starlink-terminal-detection-radar-to-ent= er-testing-in-Ukraine-as-per-Russian-military-blogger.675439.0.html > >> =20 > >> > > > =20 > >> > > > > > I would have figured on starlinks less further front, =20 > >> combined with =20 > >> > > > > > non los radios and ptp wifi being viable. Targeting > >> > > > > > every wifi transmitter is a low percentage play, and > >> > > > > > adhoc modes for =20 > >> directional =20 > >> > > > > > wifi with synthetic mac's harder to distinguish ... > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > >> > > > > > Starlink mailing list > >> > > > > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> > > > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink =20 > >> > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > >> > > Starlink mailing list > >> > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink =20 > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Starlink mailing list > >> > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink =20 > >> > >> > >> > >> --=20 > >> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: > >> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698136= 6665607352320-FXtz > >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Starlink mailing list > >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink =20 > > --=20 > > **************************************************************** > > Dr. Ulrich Speidel > > > > School of Computer Science > > > > Room 303S.594 (City Campus) > > > > The University of Auckland > > u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz =20 > > http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ > > **************************************************************** > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Starlink mailing list > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink =20 >=20 RGDS GARY --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703 gem@rellim.com Tel:+1 541 382 8588 Veritas liberabit vos. -- Quid est veritas? 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