From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from NAM04-BN8-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn8nam04on2061.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.100.61]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EDFB03B29D for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 19:25:43 -0400 (EDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=oMxc5IIisIeA3NOdODOv4SFBLLTgIDxA2mXjYSXqkbUB/7CSeUBq5Srx6fezJPyAWSAHMkXfOpSoqYglH5vWhbW+dCUzCWezQk1O7CDjbQaCs2wN3oX66Z8mDX508J5bbmhvwLifTRxz6tJ0qSPpU+0XSr4nhJJM7F9B/hgyo749t3Lu10c9cXuHua732OUaP4Db0N/X0LQXd9ye/GhM26vEaqQxECurrWxFOFesFDq/on18fr+yklL7+GeIiIrL97zBqpme8tGCde2qhbTExBd4ydxPdFrmz7mRWV2cGqCg0vQUXQ+OBA2oM/fekX3JXLplYZrO2LzXF+JRLx1ptg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=zpKWahKE/uR2FmSUeI7d+0wni7x+LtkTjJ7vjDWuOeg=; b=RPEGOuo10agz9m7WDS0S70IfP2WEvF1KW2tDO3JiPSMd9cH8dt0A/Yz6upnkm/asO68tcOmJlwVrFrRYSn5NQeWeGerxXC3NEW87Oq9dQyS+qCu6OCpT7WJkysj42RUJf9A5XdlJW2Qs1RmYuUm1+/Mroi9RF0gvXHebju59kL2sYc5/T/sF9pSjSUaKk51yZPcUSUa79/9gFqNFpdTXEduHPTmCyqiZ78EN/Q81M3cJhp7mqb8xF0qvIl68zepA5GYw25rA3R5ad1YBPdTkwEiBxcvcCX7WcXGQmmgVUrsbjbcUpnv0GY16qm51b5ocIZtcSf+W2YkIgQRCirHLNA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=alum.mit.edu; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=alum.mit.edu; dkim=pass header.d=alum.mit.edu; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alum.mit.edu; s=selector2; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=zpKWahKE/uR2FmSUeI7d+0wni7x+LtkTjJ7vjDWuOeg=; b=dy3L3lxu3hao5US2EGD1M8ZageYO7lD4Lyv9Hprw2bWK5dUjae+XgBxi8iLsx0Sj3q0ZuJsKff+Bvx1/d9jcDb0Fx815qy+WXTKHJIP/5LoGrAGzH4m0Z/0Dg7v7sbx22B3kET49FSYpkeRhhqE3HVw1KIO+CMpOrQ4DD/GQadc= Received: from CO6PR12MB5427.namprd12.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:5:358::13) by DM6PR12MB5023.namprd12.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:5:1b6::15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.6340.21; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 23:25:41 +0000 Received: from CO6PR12MB5427.namprd12.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::dd26:a6b5:1d41:ac27]) by CO6PR12MB5427.namprd12.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::dd26:a6b5:1d41:ac27%6]) with mapi id 15.20.6340.021; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 23:25:41 +0000 From: Eugene Chang To: "Rodney W. Grimes" CC: Eugene Chang , Dave Taht , Dave Taht via Starlink Thread-Topic: [Starlink] some post Starship launch thoughts Thread-Index: AQHZdrbYijhTu+gRI0KO54uXI2BI9689/W2AgAAUEwCAAAg7gIAAFoKAgAAPKAA= Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 23:25:41 +0000 Message-ID: <2586CF7A-B4B6-4916-8FA2-85150F49590B@alum.mit.edu> References: <202304262231.33QMVPgZ097387@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: <202304262231.33QMVPgZ097387@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.3) authentication-results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=alum.mit.edu; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: CO6PR12MB5427:EE_|DM6PR12MB5023:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 3503f355-2b06-4993-9dce-08db46ad8d26 x-ld-processed: 3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f,ExtAddr,ExtFwd x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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boundary="Apple-Mail=_8E863C4B-8E19-4159-B110-CA566F83C5A2"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: alum.mit.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: CO6PR12MB5427.namprd12.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 3503f355-2b06-4993-9dce-08db46ad8d26 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 26 Apr 2023 23:25:41.4042 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: Ok6RQkP+KWqymDMYe63VIGzGfXz/BaLl50LAuNwDYUVeFIPAzvpsy7PSKn+L7C1ENgngsYFlSSb0Dx67mfl3NzL4RBfGWHxALLSWFpEZQgI= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR12MB5023 Subject: Re: [Starlink] some post Starship launch thoughts X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 23:25:44 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8E863C4B-8E19-4159-B110-CA566F83C5A2 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C3878C79-A013-4AE6-8FAD-9A768C5629FA" --Apple-Mail=_C3878C79-A013-4AE6-8FAD-9A768C5629FA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thinking of evalorating steel is very cool. That certainly will = =E2=80=9Cabsorb=E2=80=9D a lot of energy. Now what would happen to the vaporized steel when it cools? Will it percipitate out into fine nanoparticles of rust? (just making = that up). The atoms have to end up somewhere. I am not sure what we know about boilers and superheated steam applies. = The boilers keeps control (keeps balance?) of the temperature and = pressure contained. Would the model of a boiler apply to the lanchpad = cooling system? Gene ----------------------------------- Eugene Chang eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu +1-781-799-0233 (in Honolulu) > On Apr 26, 2023, at 12:31 PM, Rodney W. Grimes via Starlink = wrote: >=20 >> On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 1:41?PM Rodney W. Grimes >> wrote: >>>=20 >>>> As always I enjoy the flood of information we get on this list! >>>>=20 >>>> still, so far, my research on a nitrogen deluge system (instead of >>>> water) has come up empty for me, except as a fire suppressant. So = it?s >>>> either crazy or brilliant. Or both! I really liked the idea of >>>> something cooler that was a natural byproduct of the LOX process... >>>=20 >>> I dont think cooler does much, isnt it the "energy of vaporization" >>> that is actually doing all the "work" in this type of system? >>>=20 >>> H2O is 40.7 kJ/mol and LN2 is 5.6 kJ/mol so you would >>> need ~7 times as much LN2 to do the same work. >>=20 >> Now that! was the kind of numbers I was looking for! >=20 > :-) >=20 >>=20 >> Still, water has to come from somewhere, and be stored. I will keep >> thinking about it. I like that they seem to think that a water cooled >> steel plate will suffice. >=20 > Water is a pretty ubundant resource... >=20 > Now that water cooled steel plate, if you treat it like a sacrificial > anode in a water heater, ie you expect it to be erroded over time it > could get interesting. Energy of vaporization of steel well... lets > call it iron (Fe) is 340kJ/mol. Large thick plates are rather easy > to manufacture, and I am sure they could design the ficturing such > that the blast held them in place against a concrete foundation. >=20 > Also there is probably lots of good research on keeping water > in contact with steel at high temperatures and volumes, think > Boiling Water Reactor! Containing the flying molten slag would > be a concern I suspect though. >=20 >>=20 >>> And the reason N2 is used as a fire suppressant is again not >>> because of temperature, but because it displaces the O2 and >>> suffocates the fire. N2 is also easier on our ozone layer >>> than the prior used Halon. Finally, this is usually >>> compressed N2 gas, not LN2. >>>=20 >>> -- >>> Rod Grimes = rgrimes@freebsd.org >>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> AMA March 31: = https://www.broadband.io/c/broadband-grant-events/dave-taht >> Dave T?ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>=20 >>=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink = --Apple-Mail=_C3878C79-A013-4AE6-8FAD-9A768C5629FA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Thinking of evalorating steel is very cool. That certainly = will =E2=80=9Cabsorb=E2=80=9D a lot of energy.
Now what = would happen to the vaporized steel when it cools? 
Will it percipitate out into fine nanoparticles of rust? = (just making that up).
The atoms have to end up = somewhere.

I = am not sure what we know about boilers and superheated steam applies. = The boilers keeps control (keeps balance?) of the temperature and = pressure contained. Would the model of a boiler apply to the lanchpad = cooling system?

Gene
-----------------------------------
Eugene Chang
eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu
+1-781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)





On Apr 26, 2023, at 12:31 PM, Rodney W. Grimes via Starlink = <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 1:41?PM = Rodney W. Grimes
<starlink@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> wrote:

As always I enjoy the flood of information we = get on this list!

still, so far, my = research on a nitrogen deluge system (instead of
water) = has come up empty for me, except as a fire suppressant. So it?s
either crazy or brilliant. Or both! I really liked the idea = of
something cooler that was a natural byproduct of the = LOX process...

I dont think = cooler does much, isnt it the "energy of vaporization"
that = is actually doing all the "work" in this type of system?
H2O is 40.7 kJ/mol and LN2 is 5.6 kJ/mol so you would
need ~7 times as much LN2 to do the same work.

Now that! was the kind of numbers = I was looking for!

:-)


Still, water has to = come from somewhere, and be stored. I will keep
thinking = about it. I like that they seem to think that a water cooled
steel plate will suffice.

Water is a = pretty ubundant resource...

Now that water cooled steel plate, if you treat it like a = sacrificial
anode in a = water heater, ie you expect it to be erroded over time it
could get = interesting.  Energy of vaporization of steel well... = lets
call it iron = (Fe) is 340kJ/mol.  Large thick plates are rather easy
to = manufacture, and I am sure they could design the ficturing = such
that the = blast held them in place against a concrete foundation.

Also there is = probably lots of good research on keeping water
in contact = with steel at high temperatures and volumes, think
Boiling Water = Reactor!  Containing the flying molten slag would
be a concern = I suspect though.


And the reason N2 is used as a fire suppressant = is again not
because of temperature, but because it = displaces the O2 and
suffocates the fire.  N2 is also = easier on our ozone layer
than the prior used Halon. =  Finally, this is usually
compressed N2 gas, not = LN2.

--
Rod Grimes =             &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;            =            rgrimes@freebsd.org


--
AMA= March 31: https://www.broadband.io/c/broadband-grant-events/dave-taht=
Dave T?ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC


_______________________________________________
Starlink = mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

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