[Starlink] the website for the end of the world

[Starlink] the website for the end of the world

[David Fernández]

Wondering what else, besides anycast DNS, could be worth hosting up there.

There is this study going on too: https://cordis.europa.eu/project/id/101082517


> Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2023 14:09:13 -0700
> From: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
> To: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Subject: [Starlink] the website for the end of the world
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAA93jw5L_t4ZdcCv8-ESegBm-o8_2UTWwD_Hw7qpxmUs7D7DrQ@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> John Carmack just kicked off a thoughtful thread over here:
>
> https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/1704160299845071328
>
> (Among other things, I would rather like to see DNS services hosted native
> up there)
>
> Starting point:
> The idea that the internet was created to survive nuclear war is
> apocryphal; packet routing does provide some resilience, but you will lose
> internet in an apocalypse. Space based systems are interesting to consider
> — they tend to be very reliant on ground systems, but it would be
> technically elegant if packets from one ground station to another were
> delivered directly, with no other ground interaction. LEO constellations
> probably need near constant ground help to update orbital ephemeris, and
> the orbits would decay in a few years anyway, but GEO sats could continue
> operating for decades if their control software didn’t preclude it. There
> should be off grid (or even in-space) servers connected to the satellite
> networks at static IP addresses (so DNS isn’t required). The Website For
> The End Of The World. What would a sparsely distributed group of apocalypse
> survivors want to see there? A Wikipedia mirror and some type of forum for
> communication, certainly. It seems like a good story element, but a little
> real world LARPing along those lines would be fun. The tragedy would be
> when all the terminals maintaining a fragile network of communication among
> humanity shut down due to the account billing servers being unavailable.
>
> <https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/1704160299845071328>
>
>
> --
> Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos

Re: [Starlink] the website for the end of the world

[Alexandre Petrescu]

Le 20/09/2023 à 11:13, David Fernández via Starlink a écrit :
> Wondering what else, besides anycast DNS, could be worth hosting up there.
>
> There is this study going on too: https://cordis.europa.eu/project/id/101082517
>
>
>> Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2023 14:09:13 -0700
>> From: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
>> To: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>> Subject: [Starlink] the website for the end of the world
>> Message-ID:
>> 	<CAA93jw5L_t4ZdcCv8-ESegBm-o8_2UTWwD_Hw7qpxmUs7D7DrQ@mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> John Carmack just kicked off a thoughtful thread over here:
>>
>> https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/1704160299845071328
>>
>> (Among other things, I would rather like to see DNS services hosted native
>> up there)
>>
>> Starting point:
>> The idea that the internet was created to survive nuclear war is
>> apocryphal; packet routing does provide some resilience, but you will lose
>> internet in an apocalypse. Space based systems are interesting to consider
>> — they tend to be very reliant on ground systems, but it would be
>> technically elegant if packets from one ground station to another were
>> delivered directly, with no other ground interaction. LEO constellations
>> probably need near constant ground help to update orbital ephemeris, and
>> the orbits would decay in a few years anyway, but GEO sats could continue
>> operating for decades if their control software didn’t preclude it. There
>> should be off grid (or even in-space) servers connected to the satellite
>> networks at static IP addresses (so DNS isn’t required). The Website For
>> The End Of The World. What would a sparsely distributed group of apocalypse
>> survivors want to see there? A Wikipedia mirror and some type of forum for
>> communication, certainly. It seems like a good story element, but a little
>> real world LARPing along those lines would be fun. The tragedy would be
>> when all the terminals maintaining a fragile network of communication among
>> humanity shut down due to the account billing servers being unavailable.


Recent experience about war teaches many things. (if war is what you 
mean by end of world, because there could be other reasons for end of 
world, like viruses, volcanos, metoerites and others).

In an advanced war, the destruction of sats could appear relatively 
early.  At that point, it would make not much sense to put many eggs up 
there on sats.

In a controlled war, the sats might indeed be spared - maintained there 
in agreement, but then we wouldn't talk about 'end of the world'.  
However, it is not known whether there could be such thing as a 
'controlled war' when people get very upset at each other.

For the contents of an 'end of the world' website, provided it could be 
reached somehow, maybe among some underground shelters, I'd suggest the 
following:

- prayers (I am not a believer right now, but at the end of the world 
one never knows).

- description of a means to measure time when light (Sun, starlight) is 
absent, so no shadows for sticks.

- description of methods to communicate on a longer distance when 
electricity and batteries are unavailable.

- other similar survival's expert advice.

Alex

>>
>> <https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/1704160299845071328>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
>> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

Re: [Starlink] the website for the end of the world

[Dave Taht]

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This is an uplifting story about keeping the network going in the case of a
biological war and disaster. It kind of predates LEO sats, but, in general
the tales of individual sysadmin heroism,
inspires me. A similar tale might be told of the fellas that kept Iridium
going in the dark days of bankruptcy, and buyout.

https://craphound.com/overclocked/Cory_Doctorow_-_Overclocked_-_When_Sysadmins_Ruled_the_Earth.html

On Thu, Sep 21, 2023 at 6:59 AM Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink <
starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

>
> Le 20/09/2023 à 11:13, David Fernández via Starlink a écrit :
> > Wondering what else, besides anycast DNS, could be worth hosting up
> there.
> >
> > There is this study going on too:
> https://cordis.europa.eu/project/id/101082517
> >
> >
> >> Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2023 14:09:13 -0700
> >> From: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
> >> To: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> >> Subject: [Starlink] the website for the end of the world
> >> Message-ID:
> >>      <
> CAA93jw5L_t4ZdcCv8-ESegBm-o8_2UTWwD_Hw7qpxmUs7D7DrQ@mail.gmail.com>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >>
> >> John Carmack just kicked off a thoughtful thread over here:
> >>
> >> https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/1704160299845071328
> >>
> >> (Among other things, I would rather like to see DNS services hosted
> native
> >> up there)
> >>
> >> Starting point:
> >> The idea that the internet was created to survive nuclear war is
> >> apocryphal; packet routing does provide some resilience, but you will
> lose
> >> internet in an apocalypse. Space based systems are interesting to
> consider
> >> — they tend to be very reliant on ground systems, but it would be
> >> technically elegant if packets from one ground station to another were
> >> delivered directly, with no other ground interaction. LEO constellations
> >> probably need near constant ground help to update orbital ephemeris, and
> >> the orbits would decay in a few years anyway, but GEO sats could
> continue
> >> operating for decades if their control software didn’t preclude it.
> There
> >> should be off grid (or even in-space) servers connected to the satellite
> >> networks at static IP addresses (so DNS isn’t required). The Website For
> >> The End Of The World. What would a sparsely distributed group of
> apocalypse
> >> survivors want to see there? A Wikipedia mirror and some type of forum
> for
> >> communication, certainly. It seems like a good story element, but a
> little
> >> real world LARPing along those lines would be fun. The tragedy would be
> >> when all the terminals maintaining a fragile network of communication
> among
> >> humanity shut down due to the account billing servers being unavailable.
>
>
> Recent experience about war teaches many things. (if war is what you
> mean by end of world, because there could be other reasons for end of
> world, like viruses, volcanos, metoerites and others).
>
> In an advanced war, the destruction of sats could appear relatively
> early.  At that point, it would make not much sense to put many eggs up
> there on sats.
>
> In a controlled war, the sats might indeed be spared - maintained there
> in agreement, but then we wouldn't talk about 'end of the world'.
> However, it is not known whether there could be such thing as a
> 'controlled war' when people get very upset at each other.
>
> For the contents of an 'end of the world' website, provided it could be
> reached somehow, maybe among some underground shelters, I'd suggest the
> following:
>
> - prayers (I am not a believer right now, but at the end of the world
> one never knows).
>
> - description of a means to measure time when light (Sun, starlight) is
> absent, so no shadows for sticks.
>
> - description of methods to communicate on a longer distance when
> electricity and batteries are unavailable.
>
> - other similar survival's expert advice.
>
> Alex
>
> >>
> >> <https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/1704160299845071328>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Oct 30:
> https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
> >> Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos
> > _______________________________________________
> > Starlink mailing list
> > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>


-- 
Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos

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[Starlink] the website for the end of the world

[Dave Taht]

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John Carmack just kicked off a thoughtful thread over here:

https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/1704160299845071328

(Among other things, I would rather like to see DNS services hosted native
up there)

Starting point:
The idea that the internet was created to survive nuclear war is
apocryphal; packet routing does provide some resilience, but you will lose
internet in an apocalypse. Space based systems are interesting to consider
— they tend to be very reliant on ground systems, but it would be
technically elegant if packets from one ground station to another were
delivered directly, with no other ground interaction. LEO constellations
probably need near constant ground help to update orbital ephemeris, and
the orbits would decay in a few years anyway, but GEO sats could continue
operating for decades if their control software didn’t preclude it. There
should be off grid (or even in-space) servers connected to the satellite
networks at static IP addresses (so DNS isn’t required). The Website For
The End Of The World. What would a sparsely distributed group of apocalypse
survivors want to see there? A Wikipedia mirror and some type of forum for
communication, certainly. It seems like a good story element, but a little
real world LARPing along those lines would be fun. The tragedy would be
when all the terminals maintaining a fragile network of communication among
humanity shut down due to the account billing servers being unavailable.

<https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/1704160299845071328>


-- 
Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos

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Re: [Starlink] the website for the end of the world

[tom]

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As a speculation, I’d go further:

 

Much ground-based Internet infrastructure may be replicated in space so that queries go ground-LEO-ISL-(LEO or GEO)-ISL-LEO-ground. DNS probably first as Dave says with some caching in LEOs, then server farms of CDNs, finally actual data centers. more at https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-roadmap.html

 

 

From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of Dave Taht via Starlink
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2023 5:09 PM
To: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: [Starlink] the website for the end of the world

 

John Carmack just kicked off a thoughtful thread over here:

 

https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/1704160299845071328

 

(Among other things, I would rather like to see DNS services hosted native up there)

 

Starting point:

The idea that the internet was created to survive nuclear war is apocryphal; packet routing does provide some resilience, but you will lose internet in an apocalypse. Space based systems are interesting to consider — they tend to be very reliant on ground systems, but it would be technically elegant if packets from one ground station to another were delivered directly, with no other ground interaction. LEO constellations probably need near constant ground help to update orbital ephemeris, and the orbits would decay in a few years anyway, but GEO sats could continue operating for decades if their control software didn’t preclude it. There should be off grid (or even in-space) servers connected to the satellite networks at static IP addresses (so DNS isn’t required). The Website For The End Of The World. What would a sparsely distributed group of apocalypse survivors want to see there? A Wikipedia mirror and some type of forum for communication, certainly. It seems like a good story element, but a little real world LARPing along those lines would be fun. The tragedy would be when all the terminals maintaining a fragile network of communication among humanity shut down due to the account billing servers being unavailable.

 <https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/1704160299845071328> 





 

-- 

Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html

Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos


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