From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 396703B29E for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2023 17:09:34 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1672956560; bh=JoaU7bMaWxCzgJcELRR+DuQQf/Mpc/YNl83Top4Tn6U=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=Ewkrr8NudGA70jU9gKovc0IZ4tWodQRw41vLsJ7a76vUTWSTfAf4jboSbd8oc5noH OiJvUWg32pdN0tLWyWuTX6+Z9cBdBnp9IQZocS8vvV4Mimya0xg5CImryqRsaXabVo AWMbNuwTjvT+PgutxMkQ4xGNRfRnAo6WvrovXOJW5lDan3KEWUNhUiaHl47Jc1upEn xVeVmBqOpdjDnpNay8ZKPvKXL/98VFTeWUYCgUrlo/jDGIaBFpPMipQW6SAimElnKf duhQb469z8aryTWSubqySX7GOhy6k2NSJQ7t5AVbrvfYp+g7R/Gmek5528+FCQUogm 9Vr5IhJYnglog== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([77.1.143.197]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N7R1T-1ojhLO3SyT-017l3o; Thu, 05 Jan 2023 23:09:19 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.1\)) From: Sebastian Moeller X-Priority: 3 (Normal) In-Reply-To: <58319729-3458-42A6-A6BC-6B75E43E81C1@apple.com> Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2023 23:09:19 +0100 Cc: "David P. Reed" , Dave Taht via Starlink Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2C06A6E8-EABF-4B7B-8715-B60AC7DF6104@gmx.de> References: <1672870861.69732760@apps.rackspace.com> <58319729-3458-42A6-A6BC-6B75E43E81C1@apple.com> To: Christoph Paasch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.1) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:CpCWsx9o3sYfK4AYMmvjU5OiKuaxvUByjuexFvbu6+d7/qjw3JY 0uwQw4WWvzYSfnS5C6Io9RWoq8tkA2NrPnNqMLD0N7b3FtVlV2xt8PLLe8/2DaQgkandHXM 7oeJhC445wn0KOSweZMAcGyysUhuH17f2Qio3c0TYb9xcaLmuP44LClZTuGM5e0RqdywmZB heekXztrfVjP9sHSt26WA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:JZL+sCjKGrQ=;IjmpW8wM/rZsyNXri5WwPJKZUH7 6VuK+GdlpX2xKFyU2zey+BM+iaa+pRgO1iQ/3ik2ODCB7aaD88MLn8L0sGssHwmcz/alYOueT a0ftjPrlLoXc327Yza0Q1W0xwuCX8uk0Ta3Z354ZRZCkeiuFiFvToikt5B1kbSyH7qpzmCCdN Ns2Cp5ZFLtHaUCtqLJ3y9tg35Oy7CWsZH8XWAjqXl5lLaqfJ+1TLITP+wFoSP0wSDzAN0guwB qkw/EMvtLgtPscwnDsSBwB0FCHv4EOAJVmaqNiOzRNsiIc5ebsyGC3zNXfLRwrNubR/B8BYqs Qz5dpUPQiGYHLIpHrYYi72/iYI/SSYCVZ8rrs+vWFtOZNRmQLxa3ccV/pj5yEeQz+VymyB6EV tcuPLRllyi9idDxchW0Qrh2kMXlsMkpyiTLUrTIqYQQOc2J/Ytba3i7yYlaIE7qqDlU0uPmM7 BqJT7zmB6GkzxkfK9KjIPNfOBcenBXm9aSY7pbcVc4SlSvvHm/INwkSJipKxrkfxv5i+m/aDv nZd+3MRL5T3UfWblaScBso8yyZy77gSgrWyjh5v6Tye1jEYHms4UKiox1tYsR6+pA8IIaEATB Y1ap8G0bhDRl+us4H/z9YbM0Hjr9EhilmKiUfah/y+jB8ikBvE77Wi3ie370XZvo9C3SlaCIt qj6PiGCVH/Kg26F3+pBj1E5PqP2o3xaDwWPUAlTr4fcd7ltdaVTnCrzULP95v8YI5OycHCuF1 ANCfpxN/Mu/sJOroigq1/MHaeJQjlwaCXY7ar+TIufmqvXbW6oSKWpg0lxvojm5AdS9YCQXjg 8BRQP+Vf71+GOB5zg+Hz6d6XoZHz3uuwgLqwxu5aN+dKEUUF8Fv5Un19gmmolzQZBp2QMhN36 Ti8r5yPZy2OpD/YdzJSp+pwHZkFJGn5liZS/e69+4WDJxYHE4+A9IEbIqm8AplKsFWBUNC7+Z 397bm2RQScHYnAdjHz5kh58NQGM= Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] the grinch meets cloudflare's christmas present X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2023 22:09:34 -0000 Hi Christoph, > On Jan 5, 2023, at 22:19, Christoph Paasch via Starlink = wrote: >=20 > I think, the cloudflare test uses a single TCP connection, while = Ookla/Fast/=E2=80=A6 use multiple connections. Indeed, cloudflare's test seems to use a single preferably IPv6 = connection, while Ookla and fast default to multiple parallel = connections, but both can be configured for single flow tests (while = cloudflare's so far seems to be fixed on single flow). IMHO both single = and multi-flow tests are helpful (but should be clearly report the = number of flows actually used). Packet captures are certainly helpful, but for a quick check something = like `iftop -i wan` on an OpenWrt router already helps confirming the = "flow-ness" of a test on-line. Regards Sebastian >=20 > That=E2=80=99s probably the difference for you. >=20 >=20 > Christoph >=20 >> On Jan 4, 2023, at 2:21 PM, David P. Reed via Starlink = wrote: >>=20 >> I don't know how to debug this, but the cloudflare speed test really = sucks on my home wired network, compared to others. And also I = discovered to my chagrin that the DSLReports speedtest is now broken, at = least in my Chrome browser. >> =20 >> The speeds measured by Cloudflare are essentially 1/2 of both Ookla = and Fast.com. >> =20 >> Cloudflare in my test config gives ~500/10 Mb/sec, with a download = latency of 14.6 msec, upload latency of 11.6. >> =20 >> Oookla and Fast give ~980/25 Mb/sec, with "latency" being about 11 or = 12 msec. >> =20 >> This difference is observed over a tuned "cake" install on my Linux = router, and the home network is 10 GigE to my workstation from the = router, and the router talks to my DOCSIS cable modem on RCN at 1 GigE, = with RCN's product offering being its "Gig" product. >> =20 >> Now, I hate using Ookla and getting bombarded with ads! I don't = really trust fast.com, but it used to be OK. >> =20 >> The real disappointment was that the DSL Reports speed test, which I = used to recommend is so broken. It claims it can't reach any of its 3 = selected test sites, because I may have an "alien script" and suggests = my DNS might be "slow" or my Chrome might have browser malware. >> =20 >> Now, maybe Chrome has browser malware on my machine. This is = troubling to a serious degree to me, and I will be investigating. >> =20 >> However, Cloudflare seems to be somewhat flaky to a significant = degree. (It also doesn't seem to push a fast network connection nearly = hard enough to measure lag under load, it seems to me). >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 2:20pm, = starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net said: >>=20 >> > Send Starlink mailing list submissions to >> > starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> >=20 >> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> > starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net >> >=20 >> > You can reach the person managing the list at >> > starlink-owner@lists.bufferbloat.net >> >=20 >> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> > than "Re: Contents of Starlink digest..." >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > Today's Topics: >> >=20 >> > 1. Re: [Rpm] the grinch meets cloudflare's christmas present >> > (jf@jonathanfoulkes.com) >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >=20 >> > Message: 1 >> > Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2023 14:20:15 -0500 >> > From: "jf@jonathanfoulkes.com" >> > To: Dave Taht >> > Cc: bloat , libreqos >> > , Cake List >> > , Dave Taht via Starlink >> > , Rpm , >> > IETF IPPM WG >> > Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] the grinch meets cloudflare's = christmas >> > present >> > Message-ID: = <845161E4-474C-44A9-92D4-1702748A3DA1@jonathanfoulkes.com> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" >> >=20 >> > HNY Dave and all the rest, >> >=20 >> > Great to see yet another capacity test add latency metrics to the = results. This >> > one looks like a good start. >> >=20 >> > Results from my Windstream DOCSIS 3.1 line (3.1 on download only, = up is 3.0) >> > Gigabit down / 35Mbps up provisioning. Using an IQrouter Pro (an i5 = x86) with Cake >> > set for 710/31 as this ISP can=E2=80=99t deliver reliable = low-latency unless you >> > shave a good bit off the targets. My local loop is pretty = congested. >> >=20 >> > Here=E2=80=99s the latest Cloudflare test: >> >=20 >> > -------------- next part -------------- >> > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> > Name: CFSpeedTest_Gig35_20230104.png >> > Type: image/png >> > Size: 379539 bytes >> > Desc: not available >> > URL: >> > = >> > -------------- next part -------------- >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > And an Ookla test run just afterward: >> >=20 >> > -------------- next part -------------- >> > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> > Name: Speedtest_net_Gig35_20230104.png >> > Type: image/png >> > Size: 40589 bytes >> > Desc: not available >> > URL: >> > = >> > -------------- next part -------------- >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > They are definitely both in the ballpark and correspond to other = tests run from >> > the router itself or my (wired) MacBook Pro. >> >=20 >> > Cheers, >> >=20 >> > Jonathan >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > > On Jan 4, 2023, at 12:26 PM, Dave Taht via Rpm >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > Please try the new, the shiny, the really wonderful test here: >> > > https://speed.cloudflare.com/ >> > > >> > > I would really appreciate some independent verification of >> > > measurements using this tool. In my brief experiments it appears = - as >> > > all the commercial tools to date - to dramatically understate the >> > > bufferbloat, on my LTE, (and my starlink terminal is out being >> > > hacked^H^H^H^H^H^Hworked on, so I can't measure that) >> > > >> > > My test of their test reports 223ms 5G latency under load , where >> > > flent reports over 2seconds. See comparison attached. >> > > >> > > My guess is that this otherwise lovely new tool, like too many, >> > > doesn't run for long enough. Admittedly, most web objects (their >> > > target market) are small, and so long as they remain small and = not >> > > heavily pipelined this test is a very good start... but I'm = pretty >> > > sure cloudflare is used for bigger uploads and downloads than = that. >> > > There's no way to change the test to run longer either. >> > > >> > > I'd love to get some results from other networks (compared as = usual to >> > > flent), especially ones with cake on it. I'd love to know if they >> > > measured more minimum rtts that can be obtained with fq_codel or = cake, >> > > correctly. >> > > >> > > Love Always, >> > > The Grinch >> > > >> > > -- >> > > This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would = work: >> > > >> > = https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665= 607352320-FXtz >> > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> > > >> > = ________________= _______________________________ >> > > Rpm mailing list >> > > Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net >> > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > ------------------------------ >> >=20 >> > Subject: Digest Footer >> >=20 >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Starlink mailing list >> > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > ------------------------------ >> >=20 >> > End of Starlink Digest, Vol 22, Issue 10 >> > **************************************** >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink