From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from ma-mailsvcp-mx-lapp02.apple.com (ma-mailsvcp-mx-lapp02.apple.com [17.32.222.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D79EF3B29D for ; Tue, 4 Jun 2024 14:19:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com [10.225.203.149]) by ma-mailsvcp-mx-lapp02.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.23.20230328 64bit (built Mar 28 2023)) with ESMTPS id <0SEK00SD4IW5QN00@ma-mailsvcp-mx-lapp02.apple.com> for starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net; Tue, 04 Jun 2024 11:19:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.293,Aquarius:18.0.1039,Hydra:6.0.680,FMLib:17.12.28.16 definitions=2024-06-04_09,2024-06-04_01,2024-05-17_01 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=cc : content-transfer-encoding : content-type : date : from : in-reply-to : message-id : mime-version : references : subject : to; s=20180706; bh=a2+93tBotN0S8RpADSQOEkThcnDUGkuaqOlfNB72i+Q=; b=A9ciEb+MGa1k8keRXy84HQ8FRxNNTeLgF3Q3SOKunLCDgWPpueXIrnirg8uzlJYUtDRj aqQto4tkQkigqgpvDshNOxDOs9qgNgMEElP16VfPPQwIjFwerpX7E0N4+F2MAAGjGj1C qAswRe1aeaKv/oiwrR4jO0a6Y+Icvo6ioHZ+kQJPHogyHjOz4A8wW5dHZcHY5nCC6JZ0 ljD1Ta8y+JMrpwZwRSQD7lhWMr5ECX09hbfPAZpHEj8f0cg4tPxr4rFAJXIpvqG5O+Vo KJyd1iZpeJjUQMYkZaod8flNCd0OyygrmiygcWHqGrHQXycG/8n3TOiAOWuz/SSFhVZh Qg== Received: from rn-mailsvcp-policy-lapp01.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-policy-lapp01.rno.apple.com [17.179.253.18]) by rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.23.20230328 64bit (built Mar 28 2023)) with ESMTPS id <0SEK00RFZIW5G370@rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com>; Tue, 04 Jun 2024 11:19:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from process_milters-daemon.rn-mailsvcp-policy-lapp01.rno.apple.com by rn-mailsvcp-policy-lapp01.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.22.20230228 64bit (built Feb 28 2023)) id <0SEK00700IS3Q700@rn-mailsvcp-policy-lapp01.rno.apple.com>; Tue, 04 Jun 2024 11:19:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: 206c6d8179461ac5cfede4250501cb29 X-Va-E-CD: be39ede3aa98eb6acd07e39c0394a365 X-Va-R-CD: 4b39a46afb8f669678b94e3b95957dd1 X-Va-ID: a4c52651-46c6-48dc-84ab-7b1581d8643e X-Va-CD: 0 X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: 206c6d8179461ac5cfede4250501cb29 X-V-E-CD: be39ede3aa98eb6acd07e39c0394a365 X-V-R-CD: 4b39a46afb8f669678b94e3b95957dd1 X-V-ID: f2c1a707-679d-42d6-8bc6-de48b2dac3f5 X-V-CD: 0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.293,Aquarius:18.0.1039,Hydra:6.0.680,FMLib:17.12.28.16 definitions=2024-06-04_09,2024-06-04_01,2024-05-17_01 Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [17.11.34.222]) by rn-mailsvcp-policy-lapp01.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.22.20230228 64bit (built Feb 28 2023)) with ESMTPSA id <0SEK0035LIW57K00@rn-mailsvcp-policy-lapp01.rno.apple.com>; Tue, 04 Jun 2024 11:19:17 -0700 (PDT) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3776.700.1\)) From: Stuart Cheshire In-reply-to: Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2024 11:19:07 -0700 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= , Dave Taht via Starlink , Colin_Higbie Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: <2F510BD5-2D7E-4A6A-A3DE-C529D14F6FBC@apple.com> References: <438B1BC4-D465-497A-B6BA-700E1D411036@ieee.org> <79C02ABB-B2A6-4B4D-98F4-6540D3F96EBB@ieee.org> <7E918B58-382A-4793-A144-13A7075CA56C@connectivitycap.com> <13rq2389-9012-p95n-s494-q3pp070s497n@ynat.uz> <6qop2p3o-351p-788q-q1q2-86sosnq3rn21@ynat.uz> <3FF32F52-4A93-496B-85FF-00020FA4A48B@gmx.de> <08F6942E-CC08-4956-B92E-CBEC091D86E4@ieee.org> To: Rich Brown X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3776.700.1) Subject: Re: [Starlink] The "reasons" that bufferbloat isn't a problem X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2024 18:19:19 -0000 On May 7, 2024, at 18:48, Dave Taht via Starlink = wrote: > This was a wonderful post, rich! = I agree. Thanks for writing this Rich. One minor change I will request. Any time you write words like = =E2=80=9Cspeed=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cfast=E2=80=9D, pause and consider = whether it would be more accurate to use some other term like = =E2=80=9Ccapacity=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cbandwidth=E2=80=9D, or = =E2=80=9Cthroughput=E2=80=9D. Part of what keeps us in this mess is that = people equate network capacity with =E2=80=9Cspeed=E2=80=9D, as if those = terms were synonyms. We can=E2=80=99t change how people think overnight, = but at least we can avoid further reinforcing that wrong thinking. If someone has 200 Mb/s Internet service and it feels slow, then they = might upgrade to 400 Mb/s Internet service and expect everything to be = uniformly twice as fast. We here know that doubling the network capacity = may make large downloads faster, but everything else is most likely = unchanged, and can be even worse. People never make this mistake in other contexts. If someone commutes to = work in their 20-foot RV feels that it=E2=80=99s too slow, then = upgrading to a 40-foot RV will not get them to work faster. A 40-foot RV = is *bigger* than a 20-foot RV, but it=E2=80=99s probably not *faster*. = If you are moving a vast amount of cargo that requires multiple trips, = then a larger truck will let you complete that task in fewer trips. But = for most daily driving, a bigger truck will not get to your destination = any quicker. Some simple edits: Instead of =E2=80=9Cvarying speed ISP links=E2=80=9D how about = =E2=80=9Cvarying capacity ISP links=E2=80=9D? Instead of =E2=80=9Cthey profit if you decide your network is too slow = and you upgrade to a faster device/plan=E2=80=9D how about =E2=80=9Cthey = profit if you decide your network is too slow and you upgrade to a = higher throughput device/plan=E2=80=9D? Stuart Cheshire