* Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 [not found] <mailman.1943.1646344903.1267.starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> @ 2022-03-03 23:47 ` David P. Reed 2022-03-04 5:06 ` Ulrich Speidel 0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread From: David P. Reed @ 2022-03-03 23:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: starlink; +Cc: starlink [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 19960 bytes --] I'm really appreciating all the analysis of Starlink in Ukraine context here. However, it's a lot distressing that the focus is on "military operations" context. It seems like most of the commentators want to be armchair military commanders in a situation where the last thing any Ukrainian needs is more attacks and bloodshed (no matter how precision-guided). Are we helping Elon Musk become an international arms dealer? Is that what he wants? So how is Starlink helping get aid to the vast majority (of any political persuasion) who just want to survive and don't really want to incinerate ANYONE with a Molotov cocktail? Surely there are applications of Starlink and Internet to peace other than the US's favorite mantra (if you remember) "Kill for Peace, Kill, Kill, Kill for Peace" This also strikes me about the ideas aimed at punishing Russia by disconnecting if from the Internet at the borders and denying the people living there from accessing PayPal, etc. On Thursday, March 3, 2022 5:01pm, starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net said: > Send Starlink mailing list submissions to > starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > starlink-owner@lists.bufferbloat.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Starlink digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (tom@evslin.com) > 2. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (David Lang) > 3. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (David Lang) > 4. Re: spacex & ukraine (Larry Press) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:42:54 -0500 > From: <tom@evslin.com> > To: "'Nathan Owens'" <nathan@nathan.io>, "'David Lang'" > <david@lang.hm> > Cc: <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> > Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result > Message-ID: <23e201d82f26$1d938720$58ba9560$@evslin.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I’ve also stayed with my Starlink connection for teleconferencing altho we > now have fiber available. My connection is not usually the worst on the call but > not perfect either. If I were a job seeker or being paid to present AND I had a > choice, I wouldn’t use Starlink when critical > > > > From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of Nathan > Owens > Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 12:16 PM > To: David Lang <david@lang.hm> > Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result > > > > Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / FaceTime are great. > > > > Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent measurements? I also finally > recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached. > > > > On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang <david@lang.hm > <mailto:david@lang.hm> > wrote: > > That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls for a while with no > significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the other participants) > > David Lang > > On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: > > > wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec intervals, induced > > latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughput relative to > > down. > > > > H/T David Lang for this data. > > > > On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason > > <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com <mailto:Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> > > wrote: > >> > >> When folks experience sub-par video conferencing over Starlink, it'd be > great to see working latency stats at that time - such as via the easy test at > https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat. > >> > >> On 2/23/22, 09:38, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht" > <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net > <mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of > dave.taht@gmail.com <mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> > >> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$> > >> > >> -- > >> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > >> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$> > >> > >> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Starlink mailing list > >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > <mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> > >> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$> > >> > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/attachments/20220303/9fd1da2c/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:36:42 -0800 (PST) > From: David Lang <david@lang.hm> > To: Nathan Owens <nathan@nathan.io> > Cc: David Lang <david@lang.hm>, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>, > "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> > Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result > Message-ID: <87o7734r-5ns1-q734-0qr-q0o06sp72s46@ynat.uz> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" > > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net > --te=upload_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_nup > > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net > --te=download_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_ndown > > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net > --te=upload_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_nup > > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net > --te=download_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_ndown > > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net -t > dlangs-dishy rrul_be > > > On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Nathan Owens wrote: > > > Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / FaceTime are great. > > > > Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent measurements? I also > > finally recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached. > > > > On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote: > > > >> That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls for a while with > >> no > >> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the other > participants) > >> > >> David Lang > >> > >> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: > >> > >>> wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec intervals, induced > >>> latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughput relative to > >>> down. > >>> > >>> H/T David Lang for this data. > >>> > >>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason > >>> <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> When folks experience sub-par video conferencing over Starlink, > it'd be > >> great to see working latency stats at that time - such as via the easy > test > >> at https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat. > >>>> > >>>> On 2/23/22, 09:38, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht" < > >> starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net on behalf of > dave.taht@gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$ > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > >>>> > >> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$ > >>>> > >>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Starlink mailing list > >>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>> > >> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$ > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >> Starlink mailing list > >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:37:25 -0800 (PST) > From: David Lang <david@lang.hm> > To: David Lang <david@lang.hm> > Cc: Nathan Owens <nathan@nathan.io>, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>, > "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> > Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result > Message-ID: <sp882r34-92q4-4019-8oo3-68r5n53s19n5@ynat.uz> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" > > and the irtt > > irtt client --dscp=0xfe -i3ms -d20m fremont.starlink.taht.net > > On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, David Lang wrote: > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net > > --te=upload_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_nup > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net > > --te=download_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_ndown > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net > > --te=upload_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_nup > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net > > --te=download_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_ndown > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net -t > > dlangs-dishy rrul_be > > > > > > On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Nathan Owens wrote: > > > >> Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / FaceTime are great. > >> > >> Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent measurements? I also > >> finally recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached. > >> > >> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote: > >> > >>> That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls for a while > with > >>> no > >>> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the other > >>> participants) > >>> > >>> David Lang > >>> > >>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: > >>> > >>>> wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec intervals, induced > >>>> latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughput relative to > >>>> down. > >>>> > >>>> H/T David Lang for this data. > >>>> > >>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason > >>>> <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> When folks experience sub-par video conferencing over > Starlink, it'd be > >>> great to see working latency stats at that time - such as via the > easy > >>> test > >>> at https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat. > >>>>> > >>>>> On 2/23/22, 09:38, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht" > < > >>> starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net on behalf of > dave.taht@gmail.com> > >>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$ > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > >>>>> > >>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$ > >>>>> > >>>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Starlink mailing list > >>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>>> > >>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$ > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Starlink mailing list > >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > >>> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 22:01:36 +0000 > From: Larry Press <lpress@csudh.edu> > To: Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx>, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>, > David Lang <david@lang.hm> > Cc: "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> > Subject: Re: [Starlink] spacex & ukraine > Message-ID: > <BYAPR03MB386303F48A1F1EBBF8AB3B3DC2049@BYAPR03MB3863.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > > The balance, as David mentions, is on the value of the target vs. the effort > required to strike. > > The value of allowing government and resistance leaders and journalists to > communicate with each other and the outside world seems quite high, making the > terminals attractive targets for the Russians. > > The cost of locating and striking a target also seems high -- Ukraine is large and > the terminals are portable. SpaceX is testing roaming without re-registration in > California/Nevada > (https://circleid.com/posts/20220225-spacex-is-testing-starlink-roaming). If > SpaceX is listening -- consider enabling roaming in by the users in Ukraine. > > Larry > > ________________________________ > From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of Mike > Puchol <mike@starlink.sx> > Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 1:06 AM > To: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>; David Lang <david@lang.hm> > Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> > Subject: Re: [Starlink] spacex & ukraine > > Thank you Dave, the honor is mine to share a mailing list with so many people who > know way more than I do, about any subject I could point my finger at, so I really > appreciate it. > > On the subject at hand, ELINT/SIGINT and traffic analysis has evolved massively > over the years. In the mid-90s, the Chechen president was killed by Russia with a > missile strike, based on his satcom phone signals, which included decoding the > speech and matching to ensure they were hitting the right target. > > The balance, as David mentions, is on the value of the target vs. the effort > required to strike. It is relatively easy to monitor cellular networks, decrypt > the traffic, and triangulate to almost automatically target & strike. The same > happens with VSAT, which operates against a fixed satellite, so an aircraft high > enough will be in the path between a large portion of the ground and the > satellite. > > With Starlink, the challenge is two-fold. You must be able to detect & locate the > 4.5º wide uplink beam from a terminal, which constantly moves - this can be > done by measuring just the RF levels and using an ESA to find the source. You must > also ensure that the user of the terminal is a target valuable enough to justify a > strike, which would be a lot harder, as you need to keep a good enough SNR to > demodulate, then you’d need to decrypt. Doing this in real time on an > airborne platform is quite a challenge. > > Bottom line: unless Russia goes all-out against anyone using any form of radio > comms (phones, VSAT, satcom, Starlink, etc.) and they just blindly strike any > source of RF, a Starlink user has a good chance to avoid being targeted by just > using the terminal. Different case is if terminals get used by the military, and > Russia then assumes Starlink = military target. We’re far from any clear > scenario, so we need to wait & see. > > A couple of weeks ago I sent a Ku band LNB to Oleg, tuned to the Starlink uplink > band (12.75 - 14.5 GHz), but it arrived a couple of days before the invasion > began, so he didn’t get a chance to do any analysis on the TX side of the > terminal. > > Best, > > Mike > On Mar 1, 2022, 22:15 +0300, David Lang <david@lang.hm>, wrote: > a couple thoughts on anti-radiation missiles being fired at starlink dishes > > 1. the dishes are fairly low power (100w or less) and rather directional, so > they aren't great targets. > > 2. dishes cost FAR less than the missiles that would be fired at them, and are > being produced at a much higher rate (although there are probably more missles > in the Russian inventory than spare dishes in SpaceX inventory) > > direction finding teams with boots on the ground could be more of a threat, but > the higher frequency signals are blocked fairly easily (which is why the dishes > need a clear view of the sky). It takes a fair amount of training to be good at > direction finding on weak and intermittent signals. > > David Lang > > On Tue, 1 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: > > Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 13:55:47 -0500 > From: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> > To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > Subject: [Starlink] spacex & ukraine > > It is an ongoing honor to have mike puchol sharing his insights with > us, also, on this list. > > https://spacenews.com/spacex-heeds-ukraines-starlink-sos/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://spacenews.com/spacex-heeds-ukraines-starlink-sos/__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTTiDHWk8$> > > -- > I tried to build a better future, a few times: > https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTw6dgoHU$> > > Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTN75eAXM$> > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTN75eAXM$> > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/attachments/20220303/57dc7be8/attachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 > *************************************** > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 26433 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 2022-03-03 23:47 ` [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 David P. Reed @ 2022-03-04 5:06 ` Ulrich Speidel 2022-03-04 7:00 ` Mike Puchol 0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread From: Ulrich Speidel @ 2022-03-04 5:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: starlink [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 27987 bytes --] Kia ora David! I'd personally grieve if anyone came to harm as a result of any insight I'd shared here, and I don't care whether that would be a Russian soldier or a Ukrainian freedom fighter, or heaven forbid a civilian not involved in the hostilities. I've already had an indirect approach from a party in the conflict this week to provide resources for cyber-warriors, and have politely declined and informed our university's chief information security officer, whose response to me was that he would have been a lot less polite than me. A significant part of the tensions you currently see explode in Ukraine have festered for decades and are rooted in Russia's gas exports to Western Europe. That gas has flowed for many decades, a big part of it through the territory of today's Ukraine. The pipelines go back to Soviet days when Ukraine was part of the USSR. Germany, as Russia's main gas customer, always found their Russian business partners to be reliable and faithful to contracts signed (my father was a commercial lawyer in the city of Essen, and dealt a lot with Ruhrgas there, then Germany's biggest gas company and the USSR's / Russia's biggest customer in Germany, and knows the former CEO). When the USSR fell apart, Russia suddenly found itself with another transit country along its pipeline. Ukraine insisted on being supplied at rates they would nominate. Russia was faced with a choice between supplying Ukraine for cheap or losing its ability to supply Western Europe. That's why they wanted the Nord Stream 2 pipeline so badly. After years of multi-party negotiations with the US trying to talk Germany out of saying yes to the pipeline, the Germans were left with the impression that US insistence was in no small parts motivated by them wanting to sell US-produced LPG to Europe. None of that is an excuse for a brutal invasion, of course, but maybe a reminder that life is sometimes a bit more complex than is suitable for a simple good-bad scheme. I laud Starlink and other initiatives for adding options to preserve connectivity for people in Ukraine, however small these options will be in scale, and hope that the good that will come out of the ability to support innocent civilians and shine light into dark corners will outweigh any use for the pursuit of hostilities and any risks to those using it. On 4/03/2022 12:47 pm, David P. Reed wrote: > > I'm really appreciating all the analysis of Starlink in Ukraine > context here. > > However, it's a lot distressing that the focus is on "military > operations" context. > > It seems like most of the commentators want to be armchair military > commanders in a situation where the last thing any Ukrainian needs is > more attacks and bloodshed (no matter how precision-guided). > > Are we helping Elon Musk become an international arms dealer? Is that > what he wants? > > So how is Starlink helping get aid to the vast majority (of any > political persuasion) who just want to survive and don't really want > to incinerate ANYONE with a Molotov cocktail? > > Surely there are applications of Starlink and Internet to peace other > than the US's favorite mantra (if you remember) "Kill for Peace, Kill, > Kill, Kill for Peace" > > This also strikes me about the ideas aimed at punishing Russia by > disconnecting if from the Internet at the borders and denying the > people living there from accessing PayPal, etc. > > On Thursday, March 3, 2022 5:01pm, > starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net said: > > > Send Starlink mailing list submissions to > > starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink> > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > starlink-owner@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Starlink digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (tom@evslin.com) > > 2. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (David Lang) > > 3. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (David Lang) > > 4. Re: spacex & ukraine (Larry Press) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:42:54 -0500 > > From: <tom@evslin.com> > > To: "'Nathan Owens'" <nathan@nathan.io>, "'David Lang'" > > <david@lang.hm> > > Cc: <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result > > Message-ID: <23e201d82f26$1d938720$58ba9560$@evslin.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > I’ve also stayed with my Starlink connection for teleconferencing > altho we > > now have fiber available. My connection is not usually the worst on > the call but > > not perfect either. If I were a job seeker or being paid to present > AND I had a > > choice, I wouldn’t use Starlink when critical > > > > > > > > From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of > Nathan > > Owens > > Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 12:16 PM > > To: David Lang <david@lang.hm> > > Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result > > > > > > > > Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / FaceTime are great. > > > > > > > > Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent measurements? I > also finally > > recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached. > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang <david@lang.hm > > <mailto:david@lang.hm> > wrote: > > > > That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls for a while > with no > > significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the other > participants) > > > > David Lang > > > > On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: > > > > > wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec intervals, induced > > > latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughput relative to > > > down. > > > > > > H/T David Lang for this data. > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason > > > <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com <mailto:Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> > > > wrote: > > >> > > >> When folks experience sub-par video conferencing over Starlink, > it'd be > > great to see working latency stats at that time - such as via the > easy test at > > https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat > <https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat>. > > >> > > >> On 2/23/22, 09:38, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht" > > <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net > > <mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of > > dave.taht@gmail.com <mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com> > wrote: > > >> > > >> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$> > > > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$>> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > >> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$> > > > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$>> > > >> > > >> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Starlink mailing list > > >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > <mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> > > >> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$> > > > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$>> > > >> > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > Starlink mailing list > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink> > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > > > <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/attachments/20220303/9fd1da2c/attachment-0001.html > <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/attachments/20220303/9fd1da2c/attachment-0001.html>> > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:36:42 -0800 (PST) > > From: David Lang <david@lang.hm> > > To: Nathan Owens <nathan@nathan.io> > > Cc: David Lang <david@lang.hm>, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>, > > "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result > > Message-ID: <87o7734r-5ns1-q734-0qr-q0o06sp72s46@ynat.uz> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net > > --te=upload_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_nup > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net > > --te=download_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_ndown > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net > > --te=upload_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_nup > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net > > --te=download_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_ndown > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H > fremont.starlink.taht.net -t > > dlangs-dishy rrul_be > > > > > > On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Nathan Owens wrote: > > > > > Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / FaceTime are great. > > > > > > Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent measurements? I > also > > > finally recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached. > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote: > > > > > >> That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls for a > while with > > >> no > > >> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the other > > participants) > > >> > > >> David Lang > > >> > > >> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: > > >> > > >>> wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec intervals, induced > > >>> latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughput relative to > > >>> down. > > >>> > > >>> H/T David Lang for this data. > > >>> > > >>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason > > >>> <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> When folks experience sub-par video conferencing over Starlink, > > it'd be > > >> great to see working latency stats at that time - such as via the > easy > > test > > >> at https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat > <https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat>. > > >>>> > > >>>> On 2/23/22, 09:38, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht" < > > >> starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net on behalf of > > dave.taht@gmail.com> > > >> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$> > > >>>> > > >>>> -- > > >>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > >>>> > > >> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$> > > >>>> > > >>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>> Starlink mailing list > > >>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > >>>> > > >> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >> Starlink mailing list > > >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink> > > >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:37:25 -0800 (PST) > > From: David Lang <david@lang.hm> > > To: David Lang <david@lang.hm> > > Cc: Nathan Owens <nathan@nathan.io>, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>, > > "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result > > Message-ID: <sp882r34-92q4-4019-8oo3-68r5n53s19n5@ynat.uz> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" > > > > and the irtt > > > > irtt client --dscp=0xfe -i3ms -d20m fremont.starlink.taht.net > > > > On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, David Lang wrote: > > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H > fremont.starlink.taht.net > > > --te=upload_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_nup > > > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H > fremont.starlink.taht.net > > > --te=download_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_ndown > > > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H > fremont.starlink.taht.net > > > --te=upload_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_nup > > > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H > fremont.starlink.taht.net > > > --te=download_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_ndown > > > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H > fremont.starlink.taht.net -t > > > dlangs-dishy rrul_be > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Nathan Owens wrote: > > > > > >> Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / FaceTime are great. > > >> > > >> Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent measurements? > I also > > >> finally recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached. > > >> > > >> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote: > > >> > > >>> That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls for a while > > with > > >>> no > > >>> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the other > > >>> participants) > > >>> > > >>> David Lang > > >>> > > >>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec intervals, induced > > >>>> latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughput relative to > > >>>> down. > > >>>> > > >>>> H/T David Lang for this data. > > >>>> > > >>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason > > >>>> <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> When folks experience sub-par video conferencing over > > Starlink, it'd be > > >>> great to see working latency stats at that time - such as via the > > easy > > >>> test > > >>> at https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat > <https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat>. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On 2/23/22, 09:38, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht" > > < > > >>> starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net on behalf of > > dave.taht@gmail.com> > > >>> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> -- > > >>>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > >>>>> > > >>> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>> Starlink mailing list > > >>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > >>>>> > > >>> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$> > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Starlink mailing list > > >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink> > > >>> > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 22:01:36 +0000 > > From: Larry Press <lpress@csudh.edu> > > To: Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx>, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>, > > David Lang <david@lang.hm> > > Cc: "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] spacex & ukraine > > Message-ID: > > > <BYAPR03MB386303F48A1F1EBBF8AB3B3DC2049@BYAPR03MB3863.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > > > > The balance, as David mentions, is on the value of the target vs. > the effort > > required to strike. > > > > The value of allowing government and resistance leaders and > journalists to > > communicate with each other and the outside world seems quite high, > making the > > terminals attractive targets for the Russians. > > > > The cost of locating and striking a target also seems high -- > Ukraine is large and > > the terminals are portable. SpaceX is testing roaming without > re-registration in > > California/Nevada > > > (https://circleid.com/posts/20220225-spacex-is-testing-starlink-roaming > <https://circleid.com/posts/20220225-spacex-is-testing-starlink-roaming>). > If > > SpaceX is listening -- consider enabling roaming in by the users in > Ukraine. > > > > Larry > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of > Mike > > Puchol <mike@starlink.sx> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 1:06 AM > > To: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>; David Lang <david@lang.hm> > > Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] spacex & ukraine > > > > Thank you Dave, the honor is mine to share a mailing list with so > many people who > > know way more than I do, about any subject I could point my finger > at, so I really > > appreciate it. > > > > On the subject at hand, ELINT/SIGINT and traffic analysis has > evolved massively > > over the years. In the mid-90s, the Chechen president was killed by > Russia with a > > missile strike, based on his satcom phone signals, which included > decoding the > > speech and matching to ensure they were hitting the right target. > > > > The balance, as David mentions, is on the value of the target vs. > the effort > > required to strike. It is relatively easy to monitor cellular > networks, decrypt > > the traffic, and triangulate to almost automatically target & > strike. The same > > happens with VSAT, which operates against a fixed satellite, so an > aircraft high > > enough will be in the path between a large portion of the ground and the > > satellite. > > > > With Starlink, the challenge is two-fold. You must be able to detect > & locate the > > 4.5º wide uplink beam from a terminal, which constantly moves - this > can be > > done by measuring just the RF levels and using an ESA to find the > source. You must > > also ensure that the user of the terminal is a target valuable > enough to justify a > > strike, which would be a lot harder, as you need to keep a good > enough SNR to > > demodulate, then you’d need to decrypt. Doing this in real time on an > > airborne platform is quite a challenge. > > > > Bottom line: unless Russia goes all-out against anyone using any > form of radio > > comms (phones, VSAT, satcom, Starlink, etc.) and they just blindly > strike any > > source of RF, a Starlink user has a good chance to avoid being > targeted by just > > using the terminal. Different case is if terminals get used by the > military, and > > Russia then assumes Starlink = military target. We’re far from any clear > > scenario, so we need to wait & see. > > > > A couple of weeks ago I sent a Ku band LNB to Oleg, tuned to the > Starlink uplink > > band (12.75 - 14.5 GHz), but it arrived a couple of days before the > invasion > > began, so he didn’t get a chance to do any analysis on the TX side > of the > > terminal. > > > > Best, > > > > Mike > > On Mar 1, 2022, 22:15 +0300, David Lang <david@lang.hm>, wrote: > > a couple thoughts on anti-radiation missiles being fired at starlink > dishes > > > > 1. the dishes are fairly low power (100w or less) and rather > directional, so > > they aren't great targets. > > > > 2. dishes cost FAR less than the missiles that would be fired at > them, and are > > being produced at a much higher rate (although there are probably > more missles > > in the Russian inventory than spare dishes in SpaceX inventory) > > > > direction finding teams with boots on the ground could be more of a > threat, but > > the higher frequency signals are blocked fairly easily (which is why > the dishes > > need a clear view of the sky). It takes a fair amount of training to > be good at > > direction finding on weak and intermittent signals. > > > > David Lang > > > > On Tue, 1 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: > > > > Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 13:55:47 -0500 > > From: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> > > To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > Subject: [Starlink] spacex & ukraine > > > > It is an ongoing honor to have mike puchol sharing his insights with > > us, also, on this list. > > > > https://spacenews.com/spacex-heeds-ukraines-starlink-sos/ > <https://spacenews.com/spacex-heeds-ukraines-starlink-sos/><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://spacenews.com/spacex-heeds-ukraines-starlink-sos/__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTTiDHWk8$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://spacenews.com/spacex-heeds-ukraines-starlink-sos/__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTTiDHWk8$>> > > > > -- > > I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > <https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTw6dgoHU$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTw6dgoHU$>> > > > > Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > _______________________________________________ > > Starlink mailing list > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTN75eAXM$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTN75eAXM$>> > > _______________________________________________ > > Starlink mailing list > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTN75eAXM$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTN75eAXM$>> > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > > > <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/attachments/20220303/57dc7be8/attachment.html > <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/attachments/20220303/57dc7be8/attachment.html>> > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Subject: Digest Footer > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Starlink mailing list > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink> > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 > > *************************************** > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > -- **************************************************************** Dr. Ulrich Speidel School of Computer Science Room 303S.594 (City Campus) The University of Auckland u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ **************************************************************** [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 48672 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 2022-03-04 5:06 ` Ulrich Speidel @ 2022-03-04 7:00 ` Mike Puchol 2022-03-04 8:41 ` David Lang 0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread From: Mike Puchol @ 2022-03-04 7:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: starlink, Ulrich Speidel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 26800 bytes --] IMHO unless we are addressing actual weapons, we are in murky waters. Take toilet paper. It is an element of Molotov cocktails, does it become classified as a weapon? Or in fact, anything that can aid one of the sides in their fight, including food and medical supplies. Our WISP in Kenya gets asked, very often, “why do you provide internet in slums, don’t they need like, food, clean water, healtcare, before internet?”. The answer to that is two-pronged. First, we are good at “doing internet”, in a way cost-effective enough that our business actually employs hundreds of Kenyans, many from these slums, and provides unlimited broadband internet to underprivileged communities at affordable prices. We don’t know how to “do" clean water or healthcare, so we try to make an impact with what we know. Secondly, the Human Rights Council of the UN produced, in 2011, a report, which stated: "The Special Rapporteur underscores the unique and transformative nature of the Internet not only to enable individuals to exercise their right to freedom of opinion and expression, but also a range of other human rights, and to promote the progress of society as a whole”. Many news outlets picked on this to conclude “The UN declares internet a basic human right” - which is not what the report says (full text here: https://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/17session/A.HRC.17.27_en.pdf). What it does say is it can enable the right to freedom of opinion and expression, something which Russia is trying to shut down, both in Ukraine and in Russia itself, applying sanctions to those who disseminate “non-official” information. Thus, my personal view is that a few Starlink terminals that can restore connectivity to areas where it has been limited, have benefits that outweigh the possibility that they get used for military comms or such. Best, Mike On Mar 4, 2022, 08:06 +0300, Ulrich Speidel <u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz>, wrote: > Kia ora David! I'd personally grieve if anyone came to harm as a result of any insight I'd shared here, and I don't care whether that would be a Russian soldier or a Ukrainian freedom fighter, or heaven forbid a civilian not involved in the hostilities. I've already had an indirect approach from a party in the conflict this week to provide resources for cyber-warriors, and have politely declined and informed our university's chief information security officer, whose response to me was that he would have been a lot less polite than me. > A significant part of the tensions you currently see explode in Ukraine have festered for decades and are rooted in Russia's gas exports to Western Europe. That gas has flowed for many decades, a big part of it through the territory of today's Ukraine. The pipelines go back to Soviet days when Ukraine was part of the USSR. Germany, as Russia's main gas customer, always found their Russian business partners to be reliable and faithful to contracts signed (my father was a commercial lawyer in the city of Essen, and dealt a lot with Ruhrgas there, then Germany's biggest gas company and the USSR's / Russia's biggest customer in Germany, and knows the former CEO). When the USSR fell apart, Russia suddenly found itself with another transit country along its pipeline. Ukraine insisted on being supplied at rates they would nominate. Russia was faced with a choice between supplying Ukraine for cheap or losing its ability to supply Western Europe. That's why they wanted the Nord Stream 2 pipeline so badly. After years of multi-party negotiations with the US trying to talk Germany out of saying yes to the pipeline, the Germans were left with the impression that US insistence was in no small parts motivated by them wanting to sell US-produced LPG to Europe. > None of that is an excuse for a brutal invasion, of course, but maybe a reminder that life is sometimes a bit more complex than is suitable for a simple good-bad scheme. > I laud Starlink and other initiatives for adding options to preserve connectivity for people in Ukraine, however small these options will be in scale, and hope that the good that will come out of the ability to support innocent civilians and shine light into dark corners will outweigh any use for the pursuit of hostilities and any risks to those using it. > On 4/03/2022 12:47 pm, David P. Reed wrote: > > I'm really appreciating all the analysis of Starlink in Ukraine context here. > > > > However, it's a lot distressing that the focus is on "military operations" context. > > It seems like most of the commentators want to be armchair military commanders in a situation where the last thing any Ukrainian needs is more attacks and bloodshed (no matter how precision-guided). > > > > Are we helping Elon Musk become an international arms dealer? Is that what he wants? > > > > So how is Starlink helping get aid to the vast majority (of any political persuasion) who just want to survive and don't really want to incinerate ANYONE with a Molotov cocktail? > > > > Surely there are applications of Starlink and Internet to peace other than the US's favorite mantra (if you remember) "Kill for Peace, Kill, Kill, Kill for Peace" > > > > This also strikes me about the ideas aimed at punishing Russia by disconnecting if from the Internet at the borders and denying the people living there from accessing PayPal, etc. > > > > > > On Thursday, March 3, 2022 5:01pm, starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net said: > > > > > Send Starlink mailing list submissions to > > > starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > > starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > > starlink-owner@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > > than "Re: Contents of Starlink digest..." > > > > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > > > 1. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (tom@evslin.com) > > > 2. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (David Lang) > > > 3. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (David Lang) > > > 4. Re: spacex & ukraine (Larry Press) > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Message: 1 > > > Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:42:54 -0500 > > > From: <tom@evslin.com> > > > To: "'Nathan Owens'" <nathan@nathan.io>, "'David Lang'" > > > <david@lang.hm> > > > Cc: <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> > > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result > > > Message-ID: <23e201d82f26$1d938720$58ba9560$@evslin.com> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > > > I’ve also stayed with my Starlink connection for teleconferencing altho we > > > now have fiber available. My connection is not usually the worst on the call but > > > not perfect either. If I were a job seeker or being paid to present AND I had a > > > choice, I wouldn’t use Starlink when critical > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of Nathan > > > Owens > > > Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 12:16 PM > > > To: David Lang <david@lang.hm> > > > Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result > > > > > > > > > > > > Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / FaceTime are great. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent measurements? I also finally > > > recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang <david@lang.hm > > > <mailto:david@lang.hm> > wrote: > > > > > > That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls for a while with no > > > significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the other participants) > > > > > > David Lang > > > > > > On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: > > > > > > > wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec intervals, induced > > > > latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughput relative to > > > > down. > > > > > > > > H/T David Lang for this data. > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason > > > > <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com <mailto:Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> > > > > wrote: > > > >> > > > >> When folks experience sub-par video conferencing over Starlink, it'd be > > > great to see working latency stats at that time - such as via the easy test at > > > https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat. > > > >> > > > >> On 2/23/22, 09:38, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht" > > > <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > <mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of > > > dave.taht@gmail.com <mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$ > > > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$> > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > > >> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$ > > > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$> > > > >> > > > >> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > >> Starlink mailing list > > > >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > <mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> > > > >> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$ > > > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > Starlink mailing list > > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > > URL: > > > <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/attachments/20220303/9fd1da2c/attachment-0001.html> > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Message: 2 > > > Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:36:42 -0800 (PST) > > > From: David Lang <david@lang.hm> > > > To: Nathan Owens <nathan@nathan.io> > > > Cc: David Lang <david@lang.hm>, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>, > > > "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> > > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result > > > Message-ID: <87o7734r-5ns1-q734-0qr-q0o06sp72s46@ynat.uz> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" > > > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net > > > --te=upload_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_nup > > > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net > > > --te=download_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_ndown > > > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net > > > --te=upload_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_nup > > > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net > > > --te=download_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_ndown > > > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net -t > > > dlangs-dishy rrul_be > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Nathan Owens wrote: > > > > > > > Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / FaceTime are great. > > > > > > > > Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent measurements? I also > > > > finally recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached. > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote: > > > > > > > >> That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls for a while with > > > >> no > > > >> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the other > > > participants) > > > >> > > > >> David Lang > > > >> > > > >> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec intervals, induced > > > >>> latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughput relative to > > > >>> down. > > > >>> > > > >>> H/T David Lang for this data. > > > >>> > > > >>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason > > > >>> <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> When folks experience sub-par video conferencing over Starlink, > > > it'd be > > > >> great to see working latency stats at that time - such as via the easy > > > test > > > >> at https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> On 2/23/22, 09:38, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht" < > > > >> starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net on behalf of > > > dave.taht@gmail.com> > > > >> wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$ > > > >>>> > > > >>>> -- > > > >>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$ > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > > >>>> Starlink mailing list > > > >>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$ > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > > >> Starlink mailing list > > > >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Message: 3 > > > Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:37:25 -0800 (PST) > > > From: David Lang <david@lang.hm> > > > To: David Lang <david@lang.hm> > > > Cc: Nathan Owens <nathan@nathan.io>, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>, > > > "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> > > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result > > > Message-ID: <sp882r34-92q4-4019-8oo3-68r5n53s19n5@ynat.uz> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" > > > > > > and the irtt > > > > > > irtt client --dscp=0xfe -i3ms -d20m fremont.starlink.taht.net > > > > > > On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, David Lang wrote: > > > > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net > > > > --te=upload_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_nup > > > > > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net > > > > --te=download_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_ndown > > > > > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net > > > > --te=upload_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_nup > > > > > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net > > > > --te=download_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_ndown > > > > > > > > flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net -t > > > > dlangs-dishy rrul_be > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Nathan Owens wrote: > > > > > > > >> Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / FaceTime are great. > > > >> > > > >> Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent measurements? I also > > > >> finally recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached. > > > >> > > > >> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls for a while > > > with > > > >>> no > > > >>> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the other > > > >>> participants) > > > >>> > > > >>> David Lang > > > >>> > > > >>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>> wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec intervals, induced > > > >>>> latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughput relative to > > > >>>> down. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> H/T David Lang for this data. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason > > > >>>> <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> wrote: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> When folks experience sub-par video conferencing over > > > Starlink, it'd be > > > >>> great to see working latency stats at that time - such as via the > > > easy > > > >>> test > > > >>> at https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> On 2/23/22, 09:38, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht" > > > < > > > >>> starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net on behalf of > > > dave.taht@gmail.com> > > > >>> wrote: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$ > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> -- > > > >>>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > > >>>>> > > > >>> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$ > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > > > >>>>> Starlink mailing list > > > >>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > >>>>> > > > >>> > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$ > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > > >>> Starlink mailing list > > > >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Message: 4 > > > Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 22:01:36 +0000 > > > From: Larry Press <lpress@csudh.edu> > > > To: Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx>, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>, > > > David Lang <david@lang.hm> > > > Cc: "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> > > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] spacex & ukraine > > > Message-ID: > > > <BYAPR03MB386303F48A1F1EBBF8AB3B3DC2049@BYAPR03MB3863.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > > > > > > The balance, as David mentions, is on the value of the target vs. the effort > > > required to strike. > > > > > > The value of allowing government and resistance leaders and journalists to > > > communicate with each other and the outside world seems quite high, making the > > > terminals attractive targets for the Russians. > > > > > > The cost of locating and striking a target also seems high -- Ukraine is large and > > > the terminals are portable. SpaceX is testing roaming without re-registration in > > > California/Nevada > > > (https://circleid.com/posts/20220225-spacex-is-testing-starlink-roaming). If > > > SpaceX is listening -- consider enabling roaming in by the users in Ukraine. > > > > > > Larry > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of Mike > > > Puchol <mike@starlink.sx> > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 1:06 AM > > > To: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>; David Lang <david@lang.hm> > > > Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> > > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] spacex & ukraine > > > > > > Thank you Dave, the honor is mine to share a mailing list with so many people who > > > know way more than I do, about any subject I could point my finger at, so I really > > > appreciate it. > > > > > > On the subject at hand, ELINT/SIGINT and traffic analysis has evolved massively > > > over the years. In the mid-90s, the Chechen president was killed by Russia with a > > > missile strike, based on his satcom phone signals, which included decoding the > > > speech and matching to ensure they were hitting the right target. > > > > > > The balance, as David mentions, is on the value of the target vs. the effort > > > required to strike. It is relatively easy to monitor cellular networks, decrypt > > > the traffic, and triangulate to almost automatically target & strike. The same > > > happens with VSAT, which operates against a fixed satellite, so an aircraft high > > > enough will be in the path between a large portion of the ground and the > > > satellite. > > > > > > With Starlink, the challenge is two-fold. You must be able to detect & locate the > > > 4.5º wide uplink beam from a terminal, which constantly moves - this can be > > > done by measuring just the RF levels and using an ESA to find the source. You must > > > also ensure that the user of the terminal is a target valuable enough to justify a > > > strike, which would be a lot harder, as you need to keep a good enough SNR to > > > demodulate, then you’d need to decrypt. Doing this in real time on an > > > airborne platform is quite a challenge. > > > > > > Bottom line: unless Russia goes all-out against anyone using any form of radio > > > comms (phones, VSAT, satcom, Starlink, etc.) and they just blindly strike any > > > source of RF, a Starlink user has a good chance to avoid being targeted by just > > > using the terminal. Different case is if terminals get used by the military, and > > > Russia then assumes Starlink = military target. We’re far from any clear > > > scenario, so we need to wait & see. > > > > > > A couple of weeks ago I sent a Ku band LNB to Oleg, tuned to the Starlink uplink > > > band (12.75 - 14.5 GHz), but it arrived a couple of days before the invasion > > > began, so he didn’t get a chance to do any analysis on the TX side of the > > > terminal. > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Mike > > > On Mar 1, 2022, 22:15 +0300, David Lang <david@lang.hm>, wrote: > > > a couple thoughts on anti-radiation missiles being fired at starlink dishes > > > > > > 1. the dishes are fairly low power (100w or less) and rather directional, so > > > they aren't great targets. > > > > > > 2. dishes cost FAR less than the missiles that would be fired at them, and are > > > being produced at a much higher rate (although there are probably more missles > > > in the Russian inventory than spare dishes in SpaceX inventory) > > > > > > direction finding teams with boots on the ground could be more of a threat, but > > > the higher frequency signals are blocked fairly easily (which is why the dishes > > > need a clear view of the sky). It takes a fair amount of training to be good at > > > direction finding on weak and intermittent signals. > > > > > > David Lang > > > > > > On Tue, 1 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: > > > > > > Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 13:55:47 -0500 > > > From: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> > > > To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > Subject: [Starlink] spacex & ukraine > > > > > > It is an ongoing honor to have mike puchol sharing his insights with > > > us, also, on this list. > > > > > > https://spacenews.com/spacex-heeds-ukraines-starlink-sos/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://spacenews.com/spacex-heeds-ukraines-starlink-sos/__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTTiDHWk8$> > > > > > > -- > > > I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > > https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTw6dgoHU$> > > > > > > Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Starlink mailing list > > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTN75eAXM$> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Starlink mailing list > > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTN75eAXM$> > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > > URL: > > > <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/attachments/20220303/57dc7be8/attachment.html> > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Subject: Digest Footer > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Starlink mailing list > > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > End of Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 > > > *************************************** > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Starlink mailing list > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > -- > **************************************************************** > Dr. Ulrich Speidel > > School of Computer Science > > Room 303S.594 (City Campus) > > The University of Auckland > u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz > http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ > **************************************************************** > > > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 44691 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 2022-03-04 7:00 ` Mike Puchol @ 2022-03-04 8:41 ` David Lang 2022-03-04 9:44 ` Ulrich Speidel 0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread From: David Lang @ 2022-03-04 8:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mike Puchol; +Cc: starlink, Ulrich Speidel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 27958 bytes --] There isn't a method of communication (or for that matter, any other tool that I'm aware of) that _can't_ be put to some military use (including the arts) If you want to make sure that an invention can never be used for military purposes, the only way to prevent it is to not invent it (and hope nobody else does), otherwise the best you can do is to give your favored users a head start. So if being quite about a technology isn't going to stop bad guys from (ab)using it, then the answer is to get the info out there so that the good guys will know how to use it. This discussion started with me providing an alternate view to one of the news articles that are circulating that say that using a starlink in Ukrane is painting yourself to be a target. I may be wrong (I've been wrong before, I will be wrong again), but I think it's a topic worth discussion in the open, not just in military circles. getting off my soapbox for a couple paragraphs As for Starlink, since it doesn't require local infrastructure, it's going to be used by those who are opposed to those who are controlling said infrastructure, and the only way those controlling the infrastructure can actually prevent it (other than by making people too afraid to use it, which does not have a track record of long-term success) is to attack the starlink infrastructure (via cyber, kinetic, or legal means) In the case of Ukraine, this is very unlikely to happen at any significant scale. However in other cases, the last couple of years makes it all too likely to happen. and back on my soapbox In my opinion, this is why we need multiple such satellite networks, controlled by different countries. The last century has shown us that no matter how much they try, the powers that be cannot completely cut off all the communication if the people wanting to communicate are determined enough. But in the process of trying, they will hurt a LOT of innocent people David Lang On Fri, 4 Mar 2022, Mike Puchol wrote: > Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 10:00:03 +0300 > From: Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx> > To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net, Ulrich Speidel <u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz> > Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 > > IMHO unless we are addressing actual weapons, we are in murky waters. Take toilet paper. It is an element of Molotov cocktails, does it become classified as a weapon? Or in fact, anything that can aid one of the sides in their fight, including food and medical supplies. > > Our WISP in Kenya gets asked, very often, “why do you provide internet in slums, don’t they need like, food, clean water, healtcare, before internet?”. > > The answer to that is two-pronged. First, we are good at “doing internet”, in a way cost-effective enough that our business actually employs hundreds of Kenyans, many from these slums, and provides unlimited broadband internet to underprivileged communities at affordable prices. We don’t know how to “do" clean water or healthcare, so we try to make an impact with what we know. > > Secondly, the Human Rights Council of the UN produced, in 2011, a report, which stated: > > "The Special Rapporteur underscores the unique and transformative nature of the Internet not only to enable individuals to exercise their right to freedom of opinion and expression, but also a range of other human rights, and to promote the progress of society as a whole”. > > Many news outlets picked on this to conclude “The UN declares internet a basic human right” - which is not what the report says (full text here: https://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/17session/A.HRC.17.27_en.pdf). What it does say is it can enable the right to freedom of opinion and expression, something which Russia is trying to shut down, both in Ukraine and in Russia itself, applying sanctions to those who disseminate “non-official” information. > > Thus, my personal view is that a few Starlink terminals that can restore connectivity to areas where it has been limited, have benefits that outweigh the possibility that they get used for military comms or such. > > Best, > > Mike > On Mar 4, 2022, 08:06 +0300, Ulrich Speidel <u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz>, wrote: >> Kia ora David! I'd personally grieve if anyone came to harm as a result of any insight I'd shared here, and I don't care whether that would be a Russian soldier or a Ukrainian freedom fighter, or heaven forbid a civilian not involved in the hostilities. I've already had an indirect approach from a party in the conflict this week to provide resources for cyber-warriors, and have politely declined and informed our university's chief information security officer, whose response to me was that he would have been a lot less polite than me. >> A significant part of the tensions you currently see explode in Ukraine have festered for decades and are rooted in Russia's gas exports to Western Europe. That gas has flowed for many decades, a big part of it through the territory of today's Ukraine. The pipelines go back to Soviet days when Ukraine was part of the USSR. Germany, as Russia's main gas customer, always found their Russian business partners to be reliable and faithful to contracts signed (my father was a commercial lawyer in the city of Essen, and dealt a lot with Ruhrgas there, then Germany's biggest gas company and the USSR's / Russia's biggest customer in Germany, and knows the former CEO). When the USSR fell apart, Russia suddenly found itself with another transit country along its pipeline. Ukraine insisted on being supplied at rates they would nominate. Russia was faced with a choice between supplying Ukraine for cheap or losing its ability to supply Western Europe. That's why they wanted the Nord Stream 2 pi peline so badly. After years of multi-party negotiations with the US trying to talk Germany out of saying yes to the pipeline, the Germans were left with the impression that US insistence was in no small parts motivated by them wanting to sell US-produced LPG to Europe. >> None of that is an excuse for a brutal invasion, of course, but maybe a reminder that life is sometimes a bit more complex than is suitable for a simple good-bad scheme. >> I laud Starlink and other initiatives for adding options to preserve connectivity for people in Ukraine, however small these options will be in scale, and hope that the good that will come out of the ability to support innocent civilians and shine light into dark corners will outweigh any use for the pursuit of hostilities and any risks to those using it. >> On 4/03/2022 12:47 pm, David P. Reed wrote: >>> I'm really appreciating all the analysis of Starlink in Ukraine context here. >>> >>> However, it's a lot distressing that the focus is on "military operations" context. >>> It seems like most of the commentators want to be armchair military commanders in a situation where the last thing any Ukrainian needs is more attacks and bloodshed (no matter how precision-guided). >>> >>> Are we helping Elon Musk become an international arms dealer? Is that what he wants? >>> >>> So how is Starlink helping get aid to the vast majority (of any political persuasion) who just want to survive and don't really want to incinerate ANYONE with a Molotov cocktail? >>> >>> Surely there are applications of Starlink and Internet to peace other than the US's favorite mantra (if you remember) "Kill for Peace, Kill, Kill, Kill for Peace" >>> >>> This also strikes me about the ideas aimed at punishing Russia by disconnecting if from the Internet at the borders and denying the people living there from accessing PayPal, etc. >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, March 3, 2022 5:01pm, starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net said: >>> >>>> Send Starlink mailing list submissions to >>>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> >>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>> starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> >>>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>>> starlink-owner@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> >>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>>> than "Re: Contents of Starlink digest..." >>>> >>>> >>>> Today's Topics: >>>> >>>> 1. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (tom@evslin.com) >>>> 2. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (David Lang) >>>> 3. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (David Lang) >>>> 4. Re: spacex & ukraine (Larry Press) >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Message: 1 >>>> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:42:54 -0500 >>>> From: <tom@evslin.com> >>>> To: "'Nathan Owens'" <nathan@nathan.io>, "'David Lang'" >>>> <david@lang.hm> >>>> Cc: <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> >>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result >>>> Message-ID: <23e201d82f26$1d938720$58ba9560$@evslin.com> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>> >>>> I’ve also stayed with my Starlink connection for teleconferencing altho we >>>> now have fiber available. My connection is not usually the worst on the call but >>>> not perfect either. If I were a job seeker or being paid to present AND I had a >>>> choice, I wouldn’t use Starlink when critical >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of Nathan >>>> Owens >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 12:16 PM >>>> To: David Lang <david@lang.hm> >>>> Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / FaceTime are great. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent measurements? I also finally >>>> recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang <david@lang.hm >>>> <mailto:david@lang.hm> > wrote: >>>> >>>> That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls for a while with no >>>> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the other participants) >>>> >>>> David Lang >>>> >>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: >>>> >>>>> wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec intervals, induced >>>>> latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughput relative to >>>>> down. >>>>> >>>>> H/T David Lang for this data. >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason >>>>> <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com <mailto:Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> When folks experience sub-par video conferencing over Starlink, it'd be >>>> great to see working latency stats at that time - such as via the easy test at >>>> https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 2/23/22, 09:38, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht" >>>> <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> <mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of >>>> dave.taht@gmail.com <mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$ >>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: >>>>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$ >>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$> >>>>>> >>>>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Starlink mailing list >>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> <mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> >>>>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$ >>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Starlink mailing list >>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- >>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>> URL: >>>> <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/attachments/20220303/9fd1da2c/attachment-0001.html> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 2 >>>> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:36:42 -0800 (PST) >>>> From: David Lang <david@lang.hm> >>>> To: Nathan Owens <nathan@nathan.io> >>>> Cc: David Lang <david@lang.hm>, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>, >>>> "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> >>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result >>>> Message-ID: <87o7734r-5ns1-q734-0qr-q0o06sp72s46@ynat.uz> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" >>>> >>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net >>>> --te=upload_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_nup >>>> >>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net >>>> --te=download_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_ndown >>>> >>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net >>>> --te=upload_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_nup >>>> >>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net >>>> --te=download_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_ndown >>>> >>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net -t >>>> dlangs-dishy rrul_be >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Nathan Owens wrote: >>>> >>>>> Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / FaceTime are great. >>>>> >>>>> Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent measurements? I also >>>>> finally recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached. >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls for a while with >>>>>> no >>>>>> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the other >>>> participants) >>>>>> >>>>>> David Lang >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec intervals, induced >>>>>>> latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughput relative to >>>>>>> down. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> H/T David Lang for this data. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason >>>>>>> <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> When folks experience sub-par video conferencing over Starlink, >>>> it'd be >>>>>> great to see working latency stats at that time - such as via the easy >>>> test >>>>>> at https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 2/23/22, 09:38, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht" < >>>>>> starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net on behalf of >>>> dave.taht@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Starlink mailing list >>>>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Starlink mailing list >>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 3 >>>> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:37:25 -0800 (PST) >>>> From: David Lang <david@lang.hm> >>>> To: David Lang <david@lang.hm> >>>> Cc: Nathan Owens <nathan@nathan.io>, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>, >>>> "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> >>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result >>>> Message-ID: <sp882r34-92q4-4019-8oo3-68r5n53s19n5@ynat.uz> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" >>>> >>>> and the irtt >>>> >>>> irtt client --dscp=0xfe -i3ms -d20m fremont.starlink.taht.net >>>> >>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, David Lang wrote: >>>> >>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net >>>>> --te=upload_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_nup >>>>> >>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net >>>>> --te=download_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_ndown >>>>> >>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net >>>>> --te=upload_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_nup >>>>> >>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net >>>>> --te=download_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_ndown >>>>> >>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net -t >>>>> dlangs-dishy rrul_be >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Nathan Owens wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / FaceTime are great. >>>>>> >>>>>> Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent measurements? I also >>>>>> finally recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls for a while >>>> with >>>>>>> no >>>>>>> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the other >>>>>>> participants) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David Lang >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec intervals, induced >>>>>>>> latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughput relative to >>>>>>>> down. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> H/T David Lang for this data. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason >>>>>>>> <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> When folks experience sub-par video conferencing over >>>> Starlink, it'd be >>>>>>> great to see working latency stats at that time - such as via the >>>> easy >>>>>>> test >>>>>>> at https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 2/23/22, 09:38, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht" >>>> < >>>>>>> starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net on behalf of >>>> dave.taht@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Starlink mailing list >>>>>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Starlink mailing list >>>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 4 >>>> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 22:01:36 +0000 >>>> From: Larry Press <lpress@csudh.edu> >>>> To: Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx>, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>, >>>> David Lang <david@lang.hm> >>>> Cc: "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> >>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] spacex & ukraine >>>> Message-ID: >>>> <BYAPR03MB386303F48A1F1EBBF8AB3B3DC2049@BYAPR03MB3863.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> >>>> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" >>>> >>>>> The balance, as David mentions, is on the value of the target vs. the effort >>>> required to strike. >>>> >>>> The value of allowing government and resistance leaders and journalists to >>>> communicate with each other and the outside world seems quite high, making the >>>> terminals attractive targets for the Russians. >>>> >>>> The cost of locating and striking a target also seems high -- Ukraine is large and >>>> the terminals are portable. SpaceX is testing roaming without re-registration in >>>> California/Nevada >>>> (https://circleid.com/posts/20220225-spacex-is-testing-starlink-roaming). If >>>> SpaceX is listening -- consider enabling roaming in by the users in Ukraine. >>>> >>>> Larry >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of Mike >>>> Puchol <mike@starlink.sx> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 1:06 AM >>>> To: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>; David Lang <david@lang.hm> >>>> Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> >>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] spacex & ukraine >>>> >>>> Thank you Dave, the honor is mine to share a mailing list with so many people who >>>> know way more than I do, about any subject I could point my finger at, so I really >>>> appreciate it. >>>> >>>> On the subject at hand, ELINT/SIGINT and traffic analysis has evolved massively >>>> over the years. In the mid-90s, the Chechen president was killed by Russia with a >>>> missile strike, based on his satcom phone signals, which included decoding the >>>> speech and matching to ensure they were hitting the right target. >>>> >>>> The balance, as David mentions, is on the value of the target vs. the effort >>>> required to strike. It is relatively easy to monitor cellular networks, decrypt >>>> the traffic, and triangulate to almost automatically target & strike. The same >>>> happens with VSAT, which operates against a fixed satellite, so an aircraft high >>>> enough will be in the path between a large portion of the ground and the >>>> satellite. >>>> >>>> With Starlink, the challenge is two-fold. You must be able to detect & locate the >>>> 4.5º wide uplink beam from a terminal, which constantly moves - this can be >>>> done by measuring just the RF levels and using an ESA to find the source. You must >>>> also ensure that the user of the terminal is a target valuable enough to justify a >>>> strike, which would be a lot harder, as you need to keep a good enough SNR to >>>> demodulate, then you’d need to decrypt. Doing this in real time on an >>>> airborne platform is quite a challenge. >>>> >>>> Bottom line: unless Russia goes all-out against anyone using any form of radio >>>> comms (phones, VSAT, satcom, Starlink, etc.) and they just blindly strike any >>>> source of RF, a Starlink user has a good chance to avoid being targeted by just >>>> using the terminal. Different case is if terminals get used by the military, and >>>> Russia then assumes Starlink = military target. We’re far from any clear >>>> scenario, so we need to wait & see. >>>> >>>> A couple of weeks ago I sent a Ku band LNB to Oleg, tuned to the Starlink uplink >>>> band (12.75 - 14.5 GHz), but it arrived a couple of days before the invasion >>>> began, so he didn’t get a chance to do any analysis on the TX side of the >>>> terminal. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> On Mar 1, 2022, 22:15 +0300, David Lang <david@lang.hm>, wrote: >>>> a couple thoughts on anti-radiation missiles being fired at starlink dishes >>>> >>>> 1. the dishes are fairly low power (100w or less) and rather directional, so >>>> they aren't great targets. >>>> >>>> 2. dishes cost FAR less than the missiles that would be fired at them, and are >>>> being produced at a much higher rate (although there are probably more missles >>>> in the Russian inventory than spare dishes in SpaceX inventory) >>>> >>>> direction finding teams with boots on the ground could be more of a threat, but >>>> the higher frequency signals are blocked fairly easily (which is why the dishes >>>> need a clear view of the sky). It takes a fair amount of training to be good at >>>> direction finding on weak and intermittent signals. >>>> >>>> David Lang >>>> >>>> On Tue, 1 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: >>>> >>>> Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 13:55:47 -0500 >>>> From: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> >>>> To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> Subject: [Starlink] spacex & ukraine >>>> >>>> It is an ongoing honor to have mike puchol sharing his insights with >>>> us, also, on this list. >>>> >>>> https://spacenews.com/spacex-heeds-ukraines-starlink-sos/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://spacenews.com/spacex-heeds-ukraines-starlink-sos/__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTTiDHWk8$> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: >>>> https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTw6dgoHU$> >>>> >>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Starlink mailing list >>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTN75eAXM$> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Starlink mailing list >>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTN75eAXM$> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- >>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>> URL: >>>> <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/attachments/20220303/57dc7be8/attachment.html> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Subject: Digest Footer >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Starlink mailing list >>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> End of Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 >>>> *************************************** >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Starlink mailing list >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>> >> -- >> **************************************************************** >> Dr. Ulrich Speidel >> >> School of Computer Science >> >> Room 303S.594 (City Campus) >> >> The University of Auckland >> u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz >> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ >> **************************************************************** >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 2022-03-04 8:41 ` David Lang @ 2022-03-04 9:44 ` Ulrich Speidel 2022-03-04 17:07 ` Larry Press ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 19+ messages in thread From: Ulrich Speidel @ 2022-03-04 9:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Lang, Mike Puchol; +Cc: starlink [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 37571 bytes --] Got you there David, and didn't really mean your contribution in the whole situation. As you point out, anything in comms in inherently dual use. And I think we do have a duty to warn if we see that technology that's out there might become a risk to those who choose to use it. In terms of Starlink - I really think that it's a red herring, at least for now. As I said, if Starlink can't muster anywhere near enough satellite capacity to serve all of a small town in Montana that's surrounded by gateways close by, then it's not going to be replacing the Internet as we know it in a country 60% larger in area and 40 x larger in population. At best it might be able to provide some backup in a relatively small number of places. Another perspective yet: So far, international experience shows that the Internet is remarkably robust when it comes to powers that be wanting to shut it down. It's designed to route around holes and cuts. Unless you depend on a small number of identifiable fibre cables out, like Tonga does, it's pretty difficult to cut you off completely. I very much doubt that anyone has a complete may of fibre routes in the Ukraine, let alone the Russians. There'll probably be people out there near the borders to Romania, Slovakia, Hungary and Poland - and probably even to Russia - stringing clandestine fibre cables across in order to add resilience to their networks. There'll also be countless people within Ukraine's border regions who have mobile connectivity into their neighbouring countries that can be put to good use transparently. We're talking about a pretty tech-savvy population here... Add wi-fi and a large number of satellite TV dishes into the mix, and you'll get my drift. But even so, Russia doesn't seem to be making much of an effort to disrupt the Internet in Ukraine, at least not just yet. Why? Maybe because the assumption that the Internet works against them isn't true from their perspective. Say you're in Kyiv. Hearing on the grapevine that Kherson has fallen to the Russians may be one thing, easily dismissed as war propaganda. Actually seeing pictures from the city and getting the local perspective from people you know is far more likely to make you think that your own resistance may be futile. It all feeds into the hype and panic, and creates a fertile ground for misinformation and fake news, while giving a perfect platform for Russia to communicate with its own units in the field. I wouldn't be at all surprised if a lot of them used Ukranian SIM cards on their phones. I know there's already been a drive among Ukrainian mobile operators to get people to report captured phones so they can be deactivated. On 4/03/2022 9:41 pm, David Lang wrote: > There isn't a method of communication (or for that matter, any other > tool that > I'm aware of) that _can't_ be put to some military use (including the > arts) > > If you want to make sure that an invention can never be used for military > purposes, the only way to prevent it is to not invent it (and hope > nobody else > does), otherwise the best you can do is to give your favored users a > head start. > > So if being quite about a technology isn't going to stop bad guys from > (ab)using > it, then the answer is to get the info out there so that the good guys > will know > how to use it. > > This discussion started with me providing an alternate view to one of > the news > articles that are circulating that say that using a starlink in Ukrane is > painting yourself to be a target. I may be wrong (I've been wrong > before, I will > be wrong again), but I think it's a topic worth discussion in the > open, not just > in military circles. > > > getting off my soapbox for a couple paragraphs > > > As for Starlink, since it doesn't require local infrastructure, it's > going to be > used by those who are opposed to those who are controlling said > infrastructure, > and the only way those controlling the infrastructure can actually > prevent it > (other than by making people too afraid to use it, which does not have > a track > record of long-term success) is to attack the starlink infrastructure > (via > cyber, kinetic, or legal means) > > In the case of Ukraine, this is very unlikely to happen at any > significant > scale. However in other cases, the last couple of years makes it all > too likely > to happen. > > > and back on my soapbox > > In my opinion, this is why we need multiple such satellite networks, > controlled > by different countries. The last century has shown us that no matter > how much > they try, the powers that be cannot completely cut off all the > communication if > the people wanting to communicate are determined enough. But in the > process of > trying, they will hurt a LOT of innocent people > > David Lang > > On Fri, 4 Mar 2022, Mike Puchol wrote: > > > Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 10:00:03 +0300 > > From: Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx> > > To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net, Ulrich Speidel > <u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz> > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 > > > > IMHO unless we are addressing actual weapons, we are in murky > waters. Take toilet paper. It is an element of Molotov cocktails, does > it become classified as a weapon? Or in fact, anything that can aid > one of the sides in their fight, including food and medical supplies. > > > > Our WISP in Kenya gets asked, very often, “why do you provide > internet in slums, don’t they need like, food, clean water, healtcare, > before internet?”. > > > > The answer to that is two-pronged. First, we are good at “doing > internet”, in a way cost-effective enough that our business actually > employs hundreds of Kenyans, many from these slums, and provides > unlimited broadband internet to underprivileged communities at > affordable prices. We don’t know how to “do" clean water or > healthcare, so we try to make an impact with what we know. > > > > Secondly, the Human Rights Council of the UN produced, in 2011, a > report, which stated: > > > > "The Special Rapporteur underscores the unique and transformative > nature of the Internet not only to enable individuals to exercise > their right to freedom of opinion and expression, but also a range of > other human rights, and to promote the progress of society as a whole”. > > > > Many news outlets picked on this to conclude “The UN declares > internet a basic human right” - which is not what the report says > (full text here: > https://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/17session/A.HRC.17.27_en.pdf) > <https://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/17session/A.HRC.17.27_en.pdf)>. > What it does say is it can enable the right to freedom of opinion and > expression, something which Russia is trying to shut down, both in > Ukraine and in Russia itself, applying sanctions to those who > disseminate “non-official” information. > > > > Thus, my personal view is that a few Starlink terminals that can > restore connectivity to areas where it has been limited, have benefits > that outweigh the possibility that they get used for military comms or > such. > > > > Best, > > > > Mike > > On Mar 4, 2022, 08:06 +0300, Ulrich Speidel > <u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz>, wrote: > >> Kia ora David! I'd personally grieve if anyone came to harm as a > result of any insight I'd shared here, and I don't care whether that > would be a Russian soldier or a Ukrainian freedom fighter, or heaven > forbid a civilian not involved in the hostilities. I've already had an > indirect approach from a party in the conflict this week to provide > resources for cyber-warriors, and have politely declined and informed > our university's chief information security officer, whose response to > me was that he would have been a lot less polite than me. > >> A significant part of the tensions you currently see explode in > Ukraine have festered for decades and are rooted in Russia's gas > exports to Western Europe. That gas has flowed for many decades, a big > part of it through the territory of today's Ukraine. The pipelines go > back to Soviet days when Ukraine was part of the USSR. Germany, as > Russia's main gas customer, always found their Russian business > partners to be reliable and faithful to contracts signed (my father > was a commercial lawyer in the city of Essen, and dealt a lot with > Ruhrgas there, then Germany's biggest gas company and the USSR's / > Russia's biggest customer in Germany, and knows the former CEO). When > the USSR fell apart, Russia suddenly found itself with another transit > country along its pipeline. Ukraine insisted on being supplied at > rates they would nominate. Russia was faced with a choice between > supplying Ukraine for cheap or losing its ability to supply Western > Europe. That's why they wanted the Nord Stream 2 pipeline so badly. > After years of multi-party negotiations with the US trying to talk > Germany out of saying yes to the pipeline, the Germans were left with > the impression that US insistence was in no small parts motivated by > them wanting to sell US-produced LPG to Europe. > >> None of that is an excuse for a brutal invasion, of course, but > maybe a reminder that life is sometimes a bit more complex than is > suitable for a simple good-bad scheme. > >> I laud Starlink and other initiatives for adding options to > preserve connectivity for people in Ukraine, however small these > options will be in scale, and hope that the good that will come out of > the ability to support innocent civilians and shine light into dark > corners will outweigh any use for the pursuit of hostilities and any > risks to those using it. > >> On 4/03/2022 12:47 pm, David P. Reed wrote: > >>> I'm really appreciating all the analysis of Starlink in Ukraine > context here. > >>> > >>> However, it's a lot distressing that the focus is on "military > operations" context. > >>> It seems like most of the commentators want to be armchair > military commanders in a situation where the last thing any Ukrainian > needs is more attacks and bloodshed (no matter how precision-guided). > >>> > >>> Are we helping Elon Musk become an international arms dealer? Is > that what he wants? > >>> > >>> So how is Starlink helping get aid to the vast majority (of any > political persuasion) who just want to survive and don't really want > to incinerate ANYONE with a Molotov cocktail? > >>> > >>> Surely there are applications of Starlink and Internet to peace > other than the US's favorite mantra (if you remember) "Kill for Peace, > Kill, Kill, Kill for Peace" > >>> > >>> This also strikes me about the ideas aimed at punishing Russia by > disconnecting if from the Internet at the borders and denying the > people living there from accessing PayPal, etc. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Thursday, March 3, 2022 5:01pm, > starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net said: > >>> > >>>> Send Starlink mailing list submissions to > >>>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>> > >>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink> > >>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > >>>> starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>> > >>>> You can reach the person managing the list at > >>>> starlink-owner@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>> > >>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >>>> than "Re: Contents of Starlink digest..." > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Today's Topics: > >>>> > >>>> 1. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (tom@evslin.com) > >>>> 2. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (David Lang) > >>>> 3. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (David Lang) > >>>> 4. Re: spacex & ukraine (Larry Press) > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> > >>>> Message: 1 > >>>> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:42:54 -0500 > >>>> From: <tom@evslin.com> > >>>> To: "'Nathan Owens'" <nathan@nathan.io>, "'David Lang'" > >>>> <david@lang.hm> > >>>> Cc: <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result > >>>> Message-ID: <23e201d82f26$1d938720$58ba9560$@evslin.com> > >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >>>> > >>>> I’ve also stayed with my Starlink connection for teleconferencing > altho we > >>>> now have fiber available. My connection is not usually the worst > on the call but > >>>> not perfect either. If I were a job seeker or being paid to > present AND I had a > >>>> choice, I wouldn’t use Starlink when critical > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf > Of Nathan > >>>> Owens > >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 12:16 PM > >>>> To: David Lang <david@lang.hm> > >>>> Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / FaceTime are great. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent measurements? > I also finally > >>>> recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang <david@lang.hm > >>>> <mailto:david@lang.hm> > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls for a > while with no > >>>> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the other > participants) > >>>> > >>>> David Lang > >>>> > >>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec intervals, induced > >>>>> latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughput relative to > >>>>> down. > >>>>> > >>>>> H/T David Lang for this data. > >>>>> > >>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason > >>>>> <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com <mailto:Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> When folks experience sub-par video conferencing over Starlink, > it'd be > >>>> great to see working latency stats at that time - such as via the > easy test at > >>>> https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat > <https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat>. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On 2/23/22, 09:38, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht" > >>>> <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>> <mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of > >>>> dave.taht@gmail.com <mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com> > wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$> > >>>> > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > >>>>>> > >>>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$> > >>>> > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> Starlink mailing list > >>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>> <mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> > >>>>>> > >>>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$> > >>>> > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Starlink mailing list > >>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > <mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> > >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink> > >>>> > >>>> -------------- next part -------------- > >>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >>>> URL: > >>>> > <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/attachments/20220303/9fd1da2c/attachment-0001.html > <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/attachments/20220303/9fd1da2c/attachment-0001.html>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------ > >>>> > >>>> Message: 2 > >>>> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:36:42 -0800 (PST) > >>>> From: David Lang <david@lang.hm> > >>>> To: Nathan Owens <nathan@nathan.io> > >>>> Cc: David Lang <david@lang.hm>, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>, > >>>> "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result > >>>> Message-ID: <87o7734r-5ns1-q734-0qr-q0o06sp72s46@ynat.uz> > >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" > >>>> > >>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H > fremont.starlink.taht.net > >>>> --te=upload_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_nup > >>>> > >>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H > fremont.starlink.taht.net > >>>> --te=download_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_ndown > >>>> > >>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H > fremont.starlink.taht.net > >>>> --te=upload_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_nup > >>>> > >>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H > fremont.starlink.taht.net > >>>> --te=download_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_ndown > >>>> > >>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H > fremont.starlink.taht.net -t > >>>> dlangs-dishy rrul_be > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Nathan Owens wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / FaceTime are great. > >>>>> > >>>>> Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent measurements? > I also > >>>>> finally recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached. > >>>>> > >>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls for a > while with > >>>>>> no > >>>>>> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the other > >>>> participants) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> David Lang > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec intervals, induced > >>>>>>> latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughput relative to > >>>>>>> down. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> H/T David Lang for this data. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason > >>>>>>> <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> When folks experience sub-par video conferencing over Starlink, > >>>> it'd be > >>>>>> great to see working latency stats at that time - such as via > the easy > >>>> test > >>>>>> at https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat > <https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat>. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On 2/23/22, 09:38, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht" < > >>>>>> starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net on behalf of > >>>> dave.taht@gmail.com> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> Starlink mailing list > >>>>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> Starlink mailing list > >>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------ > >>>> > >>>> Message: 3 > >>>> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:37:25 -0800 (PST) > >>>> From: David Lang <david@lang.hm> > >>>> To: David Lang <david@lang.hm> > >>>> Cc: Nathan Owens <nathan@nathan.io>, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>, > >>>> "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result > >>>> Message-ID: <sp882r34-92q4-4019-8oo3-68r5n53s19n5@ynat.uz> > >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" > >>>> > >>>> and the irtt > >>>> > >>>> irtt client --dscp=0xfe -i3ms -d20m fremont.starlink.taht.net > >>>> > >>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, David Lang wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H > fremont.starlink.taht.net > >>>>> --te=upload_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_nup > >>>>> > >>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H > fremont.starlink.taht.net > >>>>> --te=download_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_ndown > >>>>> > >>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H > fremont.starlink.taht.net > >>>>> --te=upload_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_nup > >>>>> > >>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H > fremont.starlink.taht.net > >>>>> --te=download_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_ndown > >>>>> > >>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H > fremont.starlink.taht.net -t > >>>>> dlangs-dishy rrul_be > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Nathan Owens wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / FaceTime are great. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent > measurements? I also > >>>>>> finally recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls for a > while > >>>> with > >>>>>>> no > >>>>>>> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the other > >>>>>>> participants) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> David Lang > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec intervals, induced > >>>>>>>> latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughput relative to > >>>>>>>> down. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> H/T David Lang for this data. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason > >>>>>>>> <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> When folks experience sub-par video conferencing over > >>>> Starlink, it'd be > >>>>>>> great to see working latency stats at that time - such as via the > >>>> easy > >>>>>>> test > >>>>>>> at https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat > <https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat>. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On 2/23/22, 09:38, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht" > >>>> < > >>>>>>> starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net on behalf of > >>>> dave.taht@gmail.com> > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>> Starlink mailing list > >>>>>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> Starlink mailing list > >>>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------ > >>>> > >>>> Message: 4 > >>>> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 22:01:36 +0000 > >>>> From: Larry Press <lpress@csudh.edu> > >>>> To: Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx>, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>, > >>>> David Lang <david@lang.hm> > >>>> Cc: "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] spacex & ukraine > >>>> Message-ID: > >>>> > <BYAPR03MB386303F48A1F1EBBF8AB3B3DC2049@BYAPR03MB3863.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> > >>>> > >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > >>>> > >>>>> The balance, as David mentions, is on the value of the target > vs. the effort > >>>> required to strike. > >>>> > >>>> The value of allowing government and resistance leaders and > journalists to > >>>> communicate with each other and the outside world seems quite > high, making the > >>>> terminals attractive targets for the Russians. > >>>> > >>>> The cost of locating and striking a target also seems high -- > Ukraine is large and > >>>> the terminals are portable. SpaceX is testing roaming without > re-registration in > >>>> California/Nevada > >>>> > (https://circleid.com/posts/20220225-spacex-is-testing-starlink-roaming > <https://circleid.com/posts/20220225-spacex-is-testing-starlink-roaming>). > If > >>>> SpaceX is listening -- consider enabling roaming in by the users > in Ukraine. > >>>> > >>>> Larry > >>>> > >>>> ________________________________ > >>>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf > of Mike > >>>> Puchol <mike@starlink.sx> > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 1:06 AM > >>>> To: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>; David Lang <david@lang.hm> > >>>> Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] spacex & ukraine > >>>> > >>>> Thank you Dave, the honor is mine to share a mailing list with so > many people who > >>>> know way more than I do, about any subject I could point my > finger at, so I really > >>>> appreciate it. > >>>> > >>>> On the subject at hand, ELINT/SIGINT and traffic analysis has > evolved massively > >>>> over the years. In the mid-90s, the Chechen president was killed > by Russia with a > >>>> missile strike, based on his satcom phone signals, which included > decoding the > >>>> speech and matching to ensure they were hitting the right target. > >>>> > >>>> The balance, as David mentions, is on the value of the target vs. > the effort > >>>> required to strike. It is relatively easy to monitor cellular > networks, decrypt > >>>> the traffic, and triangulate to almost automatically target & > strike. The same > >>>> happens with VSAT, which operates against a fixed satellite, so > an aircraft high > >>>> enough will be in the path between a large portion of the ground > and the > >>>> satellite. > >>>> > >>>> With Starlink, the challenge is two-fold. You must be able to > detect & locate the > >>>> 4.5º wide uplink beam from a terminal, which constantly moves - > this can be > >>>> done by measuring just the RF levels and using an ESA to find the > source. You must > >>>> also ensure that the user of the terminal is a target valuable > enough to justify a > >>>> strike, which would be a lot harder, as you need to keep a good > enough SNR to > >>>> demodulate, then you’d need to decrypt. Doing this in real time on an > >>>> airborne platform is quite a challenge. > >>>> > >>>> Bottom line: unless Russia goes all-out against anyone using any > form of radio > >>>> comms (phones, VSAT, satcom, Starlink, etc.) and they just > blindly strike any > >>>> source of RF, a Starlink user has a good chance to avoid being > targeted by just > >>>> using the terminal. Different case is if terminals get used by > the military, and > >>>> Russia then assumes Starlink = military target. We’re far from > any clear > >>>> scenario, so we need to wait & see. > >>>> > >>>> A couple of weeks ago I sent a Ku band LNB to Oleg, tuned to the > Starlink uplink > >>>> band (12.75 - 14.5 GHz), but it arrived a couple of days before > the invasion > >>>> began, so he didn’t get a chance to do any analysis on the TX > side of the > >>>> terminal. > >>>> > >>>> Best, > >>>> > >>>> Mike > >>>> On Mar 1, 2022, 22:15 +0300, David Lang <david@lang.hm>, wrote: > >>>> a couple thoughts on anti-radiation missiles being fired at > starlink dishes > >>>> > >>>> 1. the dishes are fairly low power (100w or less) and rather > directional, so > >>>> they aren't great targets. > >>>> > >>>> 2. dishes cost FAR less than the missiles that would be fired at > them, and are > >>>> being produced at a much higher rate (although there are probably > more missles > >>>> in the Russian inventory than spare dishes in SpaceX inventory) > >>>> > >>>> direction finding teams with boots on the ground could be more of > a threat, but > >>>> the higher frequency signals are blocked fairly easily (which is > why the dishes > >>>> need a clear view of the sky). It takes a fair amount of training > to be good at > >>>> direction finding on weak and intermittent signals. > >>>> > >>>> David Lang > >>>> > >>>> On Tue, 1 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 13:55:47 -0500 > >>>> From: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> > >>>> To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>> Subject: [Starlink] spacex & ukraine > >>>> > >>>> It is an ongoing honor to have mike puchol sharing his insights with > >>>> us, also, on this list. > >>>> > >>>> https://spacenews.com/spacex-heeds-ukraines-starlink-sos/ > <https://spacenews.com/spacex-heeds-ukraines-starlink-sos><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://spacenews.com/spacex-heeds-ukraines-starlink-sos/__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTTiDHWk8$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://spacenews.com/spacex-heeds-ukraines-starlink-sos/__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTTiDHWk8$>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > >>>> https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > <https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTw6dgoHU$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTw6dgoHU$>> > >>>> > >>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Starlink mailing list > >>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTN75eAXM$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTN75eAXM$>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Starlink mailing list > >>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTN75eAXM$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTN75eAXM$>> > >>>> -------------- next part -------------- > >>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >>>> URL: > >>>> > <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/attachments/20220303/57dc7be8/attachment.html > <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/attachments/20220303/57dc7be8/attachment.html>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------ > >>>> > >>>> Subject: Digest Footer > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Starlink mailing list > >>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------ > >>>> > >>>> End of Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 > >>>> *************************************** > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Starlink mailing list > >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink> > >>> > >> -- > >> **************************************************************** > >> Dr. Ulrich Speidel > >> > >> School of Computer Science > >> > >> Room 303S.594 (City Campus) > >> > >> The University of Auckland > >> u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz > >> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ > <http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich> > >> **************************************************************** > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Starlink mailing list > >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink> > > -- **************************************************************** Dr. Ulrich Speidel School of Computer Science Room 303S.594 (City Campus) The University of Auckland u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ **************************************************************** [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 58757 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 2022-03-04 9:44 ` Ulrich Speidel @ 2022-03-04 17:07 ` Larry Press 2022-03-04 23:58 ` Ulrich Speidel 2022-03-04 17:08 ` Dave Täht 2022-03-04 18:14 ` David Lang 2 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread From: Larry Press @ 2022-03-04 17:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ulrich Speidel, David Lang, Mike Puchol; +Cc: starlink [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 38609 bytes --] > Starlink can't muster anywhere near enough satellite capacity to serve all of a small town in Montana But it can serve the leaders of government and the resistance in communicating with each other and the outside world if normal connectivity becomes unavailable. ________________________________ From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of Ulrich Speidel <u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz> Sent: Friday, March 4, 2022 1:44 AM To: David Lang <david@lang.hm>; Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx> Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 Got you there David, and didn't really mean your contribution in the whole situation. As you point out, anything in comms in inherently dual use. And I think we do have a duty to warn if we see that technology that's out there might become a risk to those who choose to use it. In terms of Starlink - I really think that it's a red herring, at least for now. As I said, if Starlink can't muster anywhere near enough satellite capacity to serve all of a small town in Montana that's surrounded by gateways close by, then it's not going to be replacing the Internet as we know it in a country 60% larger in area and 40 x larger in population. At best it might be able to provide some backup in a relatively small number of places. Another perspective yet: So far, international experience shows that the Internet is remarkably robust when it comes to powers that be wanting to shut it down. It's designed to route around holes and cuts. Unless you depend on a small number of identifiable fibre cables out, like Tonga does, it's pretty difficult to cut you off completely. I very much doubt that anyone has a complete may of fibre routes in the Ukraine, let alone the Russians. There'll probably be people out there near the borders to Romania, Slovakia, Hungary and Poland - and probably even to Russia - stringing clandestine fibre cables across in order to add resilience to their networks. There'll also be countless people within Ukraine's border regions who have mobile connectivity into their neighbouring countries that can be put to good use transparently. We're talking about a pretty tech-savvy population here... Add wi-fi and a large number of satellite TV dishes into the mix, and you'll get my drift. But even so, Russia doesn't seem to be making much of an effort to disrupt the Internet in Ukraine, at least not just yet. Why? Maybe because the assumption that the Internet works against them isn't true from their perspective. Say you're in Kyiv. Hearing on the grapevine that Kherson has fallen to the Russians may be one thing, easily dismissed as war propaganda. Actually seeing pictures from the city and getting the local perspective from people you know is far more likely to make you think that your own resistance may be futile. It all feeds into the hype and panic, and creates a fertile ground for misinformation and fake news, while giving a perfect platform for Russia to communicate with its own units in the field. I wouldn't be at all surprised if a lot of them used Ukranian SIM cards on their phones. I know there's already been a drive among Ukrainian mobile operators to get people to report captured phones so they can be deactivated. On 4/03/2022 9:41 pm, David Lang wrote: There isn't a method of communication (or for that matter, any other tool that I'm aware of) that _can't_ be put to some military use (including the arts) If you want to make sure that an invention can never be used for military purposes, the only way to prevent it is to not invent it (and hope nobody else does), otherwise the best you can do is to give your favored users a head start. So if being quite about a technology isn't going to stop bad guys from (ab)using it, then the answer is to get the info out there so that the good guys will know how to use it. This discussion started with me providing an alternate view to one of the news articles that are circulating that say that using a starlink in Ukrane is painting yourself to be a target. I may be wrong (I've been wrong before, I will be wrong again), but I think it's a topic worth discussion in the open, not just in military circles. getting off my soapbox for a couple paragraphs As for Starlink, since it doesn't require local infrastructure, it's going to be used by those who are opposed to those who are controlling said infrastructure, and the only way those controlling the infrastructure can actually prevent it (other than by making people too afraid to use it, which does not have a track record of long-term success) is to attack the starlink infrastructure (via cyber, kinetic, or legal means) In the case of Ukraine, this is very unlikely to happen at any significant scale. However in other cases, the last couple of years makes it all too likely to happen. and back on my soapbox In my opinion, this is why we need multiple such satellite networks, controlled by different countries. The last century has shown us that no matter how much they try, the powers that be cannot completely cut off all the communication if the people wanting to communicate are determined enough. But in the process of trying, they will hurt a LOT of innocent people David Lang On Fri, 4 Mar 2022, Mike Puchol wrote: > Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 10:00:03 +0300 > From: Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx><mailto:mike@starlink.sx> > To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, Ulrich Speidel <u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz><mailto:u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz> > Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 > > IMHO unless we are addressing actual weapons, we are in murky waters. Take toilet paper. It is an element of Molotov cocktails, does it become classified as a weapon? Or in fact, anything that can aid one of the sides in their fight, including food and medical supplies. > > Our WISP in Kenya gets asked, very often, “why do you provide internet in slums, don’t they need like, food, clean water, healtcare, before internet?”. > > The answer to that is two-pronged. First, we are good at “doing internet”, in a way cost-effective enough that our business actually employs hundreds of Kenyans, many from these slums, and provides unlimited broadband internet to underprivileged communities at affordable prices. We don’t know how to “do" clean water or healthcare, so we try to make an impact with what we know. > > Secondly, the Human Rights Council of the UN produced, in 2011, a report, which stated: > > "The Special Rapporteur underscores the unique and transformative nature of the Internet not only to enable individuals to exercise their right to freedom of opinion and expression, but also a range of other human rights, and to promote the progress of society as a whole”. > > Many news outlets picked on this to conclude “The UN declares internet a basic human right” - which is not what the report says (full text here: https://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/17session/A.HRC.17.27_en.pdf)<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/17session/A.HRC.17.27_en.pdf)__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeIatGUP0$>. What it does say is it can enable the right to freedom of opinion and expression, something which Russia is trying to shut down, both in Ukraine and in Russia itself, applying sanctions to those who disseminate “non-official” information. > > Thus, my personal view is that a few Starlink terminals that can restore connectivity to areas where it has been limited, have benefits that outweigh the possibility that they get used for military comms or such. > > Best, > > Mike > On Mar 4, 2022, 08:06 +0300, Ulrich Speidel <u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz><mailto:u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz>, wrote: >> Kia ora David! I'd personally grieve if anyone came to harm as a result of any insight I'd shared here, and I don't care whether that would be a Russian soldier or a Ukrainian freedom fighter, or heaven forbid a civilian not involved in the hostilities. I've already had an indirect approach from a party in the conflict this week to provide resources for cyber-warriors, and have politely declined and informed our university's chief information security officer, whose response to me was that he would have been a lot less polite than me. >> A significant part of the tensions you currently see explode in Ukraine have festered for decades and are rooted in Russia's gas exports to Western Europe. That gas has flowed for many decades, a big part of it through the territory of today's Ukraine. The pipelines go back to Soviet days when Ukraine was part of the USSR. Germany, as Russia's main gas customer, always found their Russian business partners to be reliable and faithful to contracts signed (my father was a commercial lawyer in the city of Essen, and dealt a lot with Ruhrgas there, then Germany's biggest gas company and the USSR's / Russia's biggest customer in Germany, and knows the former CEO). When the USSR fell apart, Russia suddenly found itself with another transit country along its pipeline. Ukraine insisted on being supplied at rates they would nominate. Russia was faced with a choice between supplying Ukraine for cheap or losing its ability to supply Western Europe. That's why they wanted the Nord Stream 2 pipeline so badly. After years of multi-party negotiations with the US trying to talk Germany out of saying yes to the pipeline, the Germans were left with the impression that US insistence was in no small parts motivated by them wanting to sell US-produced LPG to Europe. >> None of that is an excuse for a brutal invasion, of course, but maybe a reminder that life is sometimes a bit more complex than is suitable for a simple good-bad scheme. >> I laud Starlink and other initiatives for adding options to preserve connectivity for people in Ukraine, however small these options will be in scale, and hope that the good that will come out of the ability to support innocent civilians and shine light into dark corners will outweigh any use for the pursuit of hostilities and any risks to those using it. >> On 4/03/2022 12:47 pm, David P. Reed wrote: >>> I'm really appreciating all the analysis of Starlink in Ukraine context here. >>> >>> However, it's a lot distressing that the focus is on "military operations" context. >>> It seems like most of the commentators want to be armchair military commanders in a situation where the last thing any Ukrainian needs is more attacks and bloodshed (no matter how precision-guided). >>> >>> Are we helping Elon Musk become an international arms dealer? Is that what he wants? >>> >>> So how is Starlink helping get aid to the vast majority (of any political persuasion) who just want to survive and don't really want to incinerate ANYONE with a Molotov cocktail? >>> >>> Surely there are applications of Starlink and Internet to peace other than the US's favorite mantra (if you remember) "Kill for Peace, Kill, Kill, Kill for Peace" >>> >>> This also strikes me about the ideas aimed at punishing Russia by disconnecting if from the Internet at the borders and denying the people living there from accessing PayPal, etc. >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, March 3, 2022 5:01pm, starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net> said: >>> >>>> Send Starlink mailing list submissions to >>>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> >>>> >>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeFW1zm-b$> >>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>> starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net> >>>> >>>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>>> starlink-owner@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:starlink-owner@lists.bufferbloat.net> >>>> >>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>>> than "Re: Contents of Starlink digest..." >>>> >>>> >>>> Today's Topics: >>>> >>>> 1. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (tom@evslin.com<mailto:tom@evslin.com>) >>>> 2. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (David Lang) >>>> 3. Re: recent starlink rrul test result (David Lang) >>>> 4. Re: spacex & ukraine (Larry Press) >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Message: 1 >>>> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:42:54 -0500 >>>> From: <tom@evslin.com><mailto:tom@evslin.com> >>>> To: "'Nathan Owens'" <nathan@nathan.io><mailto:nathan@nathan.io>, "'David Lang'" >>>> <david@lang.hm><mailto:david@lang.hm> >>>> Cc: <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net><mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> >>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result >>>> Message-ID: <23e201d82f26$1d938720$58ba9560$@evslin.com><mailto:23e201d82f26$1d938720$58ba9560$@evslin.com> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>> >>>> I’ve also stayed with my Starlink connection for teleconferencing altho we >>>> now have fiber available. My connection is not usually the worst on the call but >>>> not perfect either. If I were a job seeker or being paid to present AND I had a >>>> choice, I wouldn’t use Starlink when critical >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net><mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of Nathan >>>> Owens >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 12:16 PM >>>> To: David Lang <david@lang.hm><mailto:david@lang.hm> >>>> Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> >>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / FaceTime are great. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent measurements? I also finally >>>> recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang <david@lang.hm<mailto:david@lang.hm> >>>> <mailto:david@lang.hm><mailto:david@lang.hm> > wrote: >>>> >>>> That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls for a while with no >>>> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the other participants) >>>> >>>> David Lang >>>> >>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: >>>> >>>>> wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec intervals, induced >>>>> latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughput relative to >>>>> down. >>>>> >>>>> H/T David Lang for this data. >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason >>>>> <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com<mailto:Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> <mailto:Jason_Livingood@comcast.com><mailto:Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> When folks experience sub-par video conferencing over Starlink, it'd be >>>> great to see working latency stats at that time - such as via the easy test at >>>> https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeAlH9yvN$>. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 2/23/22, 09:38, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht" >>>> <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> >>>> <mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net><mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of >>>> dave.taht@gmail.com<mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com> <mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com><mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$ >>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: >>>>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$ >>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$> >>>>>> >>>>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Starlink mailing list >>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> >>>> <mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net><mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> >>>>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$ >>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Starlink mailing list >>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> <mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net><mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeFW1zm-b$> >>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- >>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>> URL: >>>> <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/attachments/20220303/9fd1da2c/attachment-0001.html<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/attachments/20220303/9fd1da2c/attachment-0001.html__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeJ4cWlI4$>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 2 >>>> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:36:42 -0800 (PST) >>>> From: David Lang <david@lang.hm><mailto:david@lang.hm> >>>> To: Nathan Owens <nathan@nathan.io><mailto:nathan@nathan.io> >>>> Cc: David Lang <david@lang.hm><mailto:david@lang.hm>, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com><mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com>, >>>> "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"<mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net><mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> >>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result >>>> Message-ID: <87o7734r-5ns1-q734-0qr-q0o06sp72s46@ynat.uz><mailto:87o7734r-5ns1-q734-0qr-q0o06sp72s46@ynat.uz> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" >>>> >>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net >>>> --te=upload_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_nup >>>> >>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net >>>> --te=download_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_ndown >>>> >>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net >>>> --te=upload_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_nup >>>> >>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net >>>> --te=download_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_ndown >>>> >>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net -t >>>> dlangs-dishy rrul_be >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Nathan Owens wrote: >>>> >>>>> Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / FaceTime are great. >>>>> >>>>> Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent measurements? I also >>>>> finally recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached. >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang <david@lang.hm><mailto:david@lang.hm> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls for a while with >>>>>> no >>>>>> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the other >>>> participants) >>>>>> >>>>>> David Lang >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec intervals, induced >>>>>>> latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughput relative to >>>>>>> down. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> H/T David Lang for this data. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason >>>>>>> <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com><mailto:Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> When folks experience sub-par video conferencing over Starlink, >>>> it'd be >>>>>> great to see working latency stats at that time - such as via the easy >>>> test >>>>>> at https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeAlH9yvN$>. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 2/23/22, 09:38, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht" < >>>>>> starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of >>>> dave.taht@gmail.com<mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Starlink mailing list >>>>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Starlink mailing list >>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> >>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeFW1zm-b$> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 3 >>>> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 12:37:25 -0800 (PST) >>>> From: David Lang <david@lang.hm><mailto:david@lang.hm> >>>> To: David Lang <david@lang.hm><mailto:david@lang.hm> >>>> Cc: Nathan Owens <nathan@nathan.io><mailto:nathan@nathan.io>, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com><mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com>, >>>> "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"<mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net><mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> >>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] recent starlink rrul test result >>>> Message-ID: <sp882r34-92q4-4019-8oo3-68r5n53s19n5@ynat.uz><mailto:sp882r34-92q4-4019-8oo3-68r5n53s19n5@ynat.uz> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" >>>> >>>> and the irtt >>>> >>>> irtt client --dscp=0xfe -i3ms -d20m fremont.starlink.taht.net >>>> >>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, David Lang wrote: >>>> >>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net >>>>> --te=upload_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_nup >>>>> >>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net >>>>> --te=download_streams=1 -t dlangs-dishy tcp_ndown >>>>> >>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net >>>>> --te=upload_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_nup >>>>> >>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net >>>>> --te=download_streams=8 -t dlangs-dishy-8 tcp_ndown >>>>> >>>>> flent -l 300 --step-size=.05 --socket-stats -H fremont.starlink.taht.net -t >>>>> dlangs-dishy rrul_be >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Nathan Owens wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Same here, Google Meet / Zoom / Teams / FaceTime are great. >>>>>> >>>>>> Dave, can you post the commands to run those flent measurements? I also >>>>>> finally recreated that irtt-based scatterplot, attached. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 7:15 AM David Lang <david@lang.hm><mailto:david@lang.hm> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> That said, I've been using starlink for work zoom calls for a while >>>> with >>>>>>> no >>>>>>> significant issues (nothing I can pin on my side vs the other >>>>>>> participants) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David Lang >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wildly variable bandwidth, adjusted at 15 sec intervals, induced >>>>>>>> latencies of 400ms, really terrible upload throughput relative to >>>>>>>> down. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> H/T David Lang for this data. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 9:31 AM Livingood, Jason >>>>>>>> <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com><mailto:Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> When folks experience sub-par video conferencing over >>>> Starlink, it'd be >>>>>>> great to see working latency stats at that time - such as via the >>>> easy >>>>>>> test >>>>>>> at https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeAlH9yvN$>. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 2/23/22, 09:38, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht" >>>> < >>>>>>> starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of >>>> dave.taht@gmail.com<mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.tomevslin.com/2022/02/starlinks-zoomready-rating-is-going-down.html__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj8WTA26WA$ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj-yqmwsLA$ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Starlink mailing list >>>>>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!TjZjoTCGYO2gkt9xYrGdFrivrejHIdNjVe0TtEsCuQfDJTyNNy4u3_5CxlN2sj_SP7yVhg$ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Starlink mailing list >>>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> >>>>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeFW1zm-b$> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 4 >>>> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 22:01:36 +0000 >>>> From: Larry Press <lpress@csudh.edu><mailto:lpress@csudh.edu> >>>> To: Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx><mailto:mike@starlink.sx>, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com><mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com>, >>>> David Lang <david@lang.hm><mailto:david@lang.hm> >>>> Cc: "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"<mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net><mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> >>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] spacex & ukraine >>>> Message-ID: >>>> <BYAPR03MB386303F48A1F1EBBF8AB3B3DC2049@BYAPR03MB3863.namprd03.prod.outlook.com><mailto:BYAPR03MB386303F48A1F1EBBF8AB3B3DC2049@BYAPR03MB3863.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> >>>> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" >>>> >>>>> The balance, as David mentions, is on the value of the target vs. the effort >>>> required to strike. >>>> >>>> The value of allowing government and resistance leaders and journalists to >>>> communicate with each other and the outside world seems quite high, making the >>>> terminals attractive targets for the Russians. >>>> >>>> The cost of locating and striking a target also seems high -- Ukraine is large and >>>> the terminals are portable. SpaceX is testing roaming without re-registration in >>>> California/Nevada >>>> (https://circleid.com/posts/20220225-spacex-is-testing-starlink-roaming<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://circleid.com/posts/20220225-spacex-is-testing-starlink-roaming__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeClAUX5S$>). If >>>> SpaceX is listening -- consider enabling roaming in by the users in Ukraine. >>>> >>>> Larry >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net><mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of Mike >>>> Puchol <mike@starlink.sx><mailto:mike@starlink.sx> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 1:06 AM >>>> To: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com><mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com>; David Lang <david@lang.hm><mailto:david@lang.hm> >>>> Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net><mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> >>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] spacex & ukraine >>>> >>>> Thank you Dave, the honor is mine to share a mailing list with so many people who >>>> know way more than I do, about any subject I could point my finger at, so I really >>>> appreciate it. >>>> >>>> On the subject at hand, ELINT/SIGINT and traffic analysis has evolved massively >>>> over the years. In the mid-90s, the Chechen president was killed by Russia with a >>>> missile strike, based on his satcom phone signals, which included decoding the >>>> speech and matching to ensure they were hitting the right target. >>>> >>>> The balance, as David mentions, is on the value of the target vs. the effort >>>> required to strike. It is relatively easy to monitor cellular networks, decrypt >>>> the traffic, and triangulate to almost automatically target & strike. The same >>>> happens with VSAT, which operates against a fixed satellite, so an aircraft high >>>> enough will be in the path between a large portion of the ground and the >>>> satellite. >>>> >>>> With Starlink, the challenge is two-fold. You must be able to detect & locate the >>>> 4.5º wide uplink beam from a terminal, which constantly moves - this can be >>>> done by measuring just the RF levels and using an ESA to find the source. You must >>>> also ensure that the user of the terminal is a target valuable enough to justify a >>>> strike, which would be a lot harder, as you need to keep a good enough SNR to >>>> demodulate, then you’d need to decrypt. Doing this in real time on an >>>> airborne platform is quite a challenge. >>>> >>>> Bottom line: unless Russia goes all-out against anyone using any form of radio >>>> comms (phones, VSAT, satcom, Starlink, etc.) and they just blindly strike any >>>> source of RF, a Starlink user has a good chance to avoid being targeted by just >>>> using the terminal. Different case is if terminals get used by the military, and >>>> Russia then assumes Starlink = military target. We’re far from any clear >>>> scenario, so we need to wait & see. >>>> >>>> A couple of weeks ago I sent a Ku band LNB to Oleg, tuned to the Starlink uplink >>>> band (12.75 - 14.5 GHz), but it arrived a couple of days before the invasion >>>> began, so he didn’t get a chance to do any analysis on the TX side of the >>>> terminal. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> On Mar 1, 2022, 22:15 +0300, David Lang <david@lang.hm><mailto:david@lang.hm>, wrote: >>>> a couple thoughts on anti-radiation missiles being fired at starlink dishes >>>> >>>> 1. the dishes are fairly low power (100w or less) and rather directional, so >>>> they aren't great targets. >>>> >>>> 2. dishes cost FAR less than the missiles that would be fired at them, and are >>>> being produced at a much higher rate (although there are probably more missles >>>> in the Russian inventory than spare dishes in SpaceX inventory) >>>> >>>> direction finding teams with boots on the ground could be more of a threat, but >>>> the higher frequency signals are blocked fairly easily (which is why the dishes >>>> need a clear view of the sky). It takes a fair amount of training to be good at >>>> direction finding on weak and intermittent signals. >>>> >>>> David Lang >>>> >>>> On Tue, 1 Mar 2022, Dave Taht wrote: >>>> >>>> Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 13:55:47 -0500 >>>> From: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com><mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com> >>>> To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> >>>> Subject: [Starlink] spacex & ukraine >>>> >>>> It is an ongoing honor to have mike puchol sharing his insights with >>>> us, also, on this list. >>>> >>>> https://spacenews.com/spacex-heeds-ukraines-starlink-sos/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://spacenews.com/spacex-heeds-ukraines-starlink-sos__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeHz2pCfe$><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://spacenews.com/spacex-heeds-ukraines-starlink-sos/__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTTiDHWk8$> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: >>>> https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeMOCwUwR$><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTw6dgoHU$> >>>> >>>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Starlink mailing list >>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeFW1zm-b$><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTN75eAXM$> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Starlink mailing list >>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeFW1zm-b$><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!uT2pzIfUcFbj7Vv0Bb9RBU2KwIN5DrfrZHS-tHLcaxzdteVwgm5SzgXoiFK1cNklRuLosonTN75eAXM$> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- >>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>> URL: >>>> <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/attachments/20220303/57dc7be8/attachment.html<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/attachments/20220303/57dc7be8/attachment.html__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeHRCqHTn$>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Subject: Digest Footer >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Starlink mailing list >>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeFW1zm-b$> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> End of Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 >>>> *************************************** >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Starlink mailing list >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeFW1zm-b$> >>> >> -- >> **************************************************************** >> Dr. Ulrich Speidel >> >> School of Computer Science >> >> Room 303S.594 (City Campus) >> >> The University of Auckland >> u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz<mailto:u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz> >> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/*ulrich__;fg!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeMBROiEE$> >> **************************************************************** >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeFW1zm-b$> > -- **************************************************************** Dr. Ulrich Speidel School of Computer Science Room 303S.594 (City Campus) The University of Auckland u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz<mailto:u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/*ulrich/__;fg!!P7nkOOY!vr-JE3BYLyIUJpukd3vBgkzKbcUEbfh5GVvv_dbFak0WhyuWYkcJY3_mjPp6OgUUmy11TdUfqzlLaq_CeEcsMKQl$> **************************************************************** [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 57853 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 2022-03-04 17:07 ` Larry Press @ 2022-03-04 23:58 ` Ulrich Speidel 0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread From: Ulrich Speidel @ 2022-03-04 23:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Larry Press, David Lang, Mike Puchol; +Cc: starlink [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 752 bytes --] On 5/03/2022 6:07 am, Larry Press wrote: > > Starlinkcan't muster anywhere near enough satellite capacity to serve all of a > small town in Montana > > But it can serve the leaders of government and the resistance in > communicating with each other and the outside world if normal > connectivity becomes unavailable. But that's exactly the situation that would make it a party to the conflict and its user a target. -- **************************************************************** Dr. Ulrich Speidel School of Computer Science Room 303S.594 (City Campus) The University of Auckland u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ **************************************************************** [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3177 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 2022-03-04 9:44 ` Ulrich Speidel 2022-03-04 17:07 ` Larry Press @ 2022-03-04 17:08 ` Dave Täht 2022-03-04 17:10 ` Dave Taht 2022-03-04 18:14 ` David Lang 2 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread From: Dave Täht @ 2022-03-04 17:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ulrich Speidel; +Cc: David Lang, Mike Puchol, starlink Taking control of 1/3 the electrical power potentially disrupts most communication technologies. Distributed power collection and generation is also identifiable from above. There has been a very good discussion about preserving communications and infrastructure on the nanog mailing list, with among other things ripe and ICANNs refusal to disrupt the dns on behalf of any party. However the cloud providers and major companies are coming down hard against russia. These three aspects of a fresh war in europe I confess to not having thought about much before this week. A fourth is that I know very little about the other countries formerly of the USSR and their infrastructures and alignments, and have been trying to find out, as I think those are the major wild cards moving forward through this week. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 2022-03-04 17:08 ` Dave Täht @ 2022-03-04 17:10 ` Dave Taht 0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread From: Dave Taht @ 2022-03-04 17:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dave Täht; +Cc: Ulrich Speidel, starlink please see: https://twitter.com/capacitymedia/status/1499777574058274823 as for means to track some of those disruptions. On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 12:08 PM Dave Täht <davet@teklibre.net> wrote: > > Taking control of 1/3 the electrical power potentially disrupts > most communication technologies. Distributed power collection > and generation is also identifiable from above. > > There has been a very good discussion about preserving communications > and infrastructure on the nanog mailing list, with among other things > ripe and ICANNs refusal to disrupt the dns on behalf of any party. > > However the cloud providers and major companies are coming down > hard against russia. > > These three aspects of a fresh war in europe I confess to not > having thought about much before this week. > > A fourth is that I know very little about the other countries > formerly of the USSR and their infrastructures and alignments, > and have been trying to find out, as I think those are the > major wild cards moving forward through this week. > > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink -- I tried to build a better future, a few times: https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 2022-03-04 9:44 ` Ulrich Speidel 2022-03-04 17:07 ` Larry Press 2022-03-04 17:08 ` Dave Täht @ 2022-03-04 18:14 ` David Lang 2022-03-04 18:21 ` Ben Greear 2022-03-05 0:14 ` Ulrich Speidel 2 siblings, 2 replies; 19+ messages in thread From: David Lang @ 2022-03-04 18:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ulrich Speidel; +Cc: David Lang, Mike Puchol, starlink On Fri, 4 Mar 2022, Ulrich Speidel wrote: > In terms of Starlink - I really think that it's a red herring, at least for > now. As I said, if Starlink can't muster anywhere near enough satellite > capacity to serve all of a small town in Montana that's surrounded by > gateways close by, then it's not going to be replacing the Internet as we > know it in a country 60% larger in area and 40 x larger in population. At > best it might be able to provide some backup in a relatively small number of > places. It depends on what you set as your requirements. If you are talking about everyone streaming video, you are correct, but if you talk about less bandwidth intensive uses, a little bandwidth goes a long ways. There's also FAR more of a difference between nothing and low bandwidth than between low and high bandwidth. Telephone audio is an 64Mb stream, without compression, email and text chat are very low bandwidth. 20 years ago, you could have an office of 100 employees living on a 1.5Mb Internet connection and have people very happy. A single dishy is 100x this. I agree that Starlink is not a full replacement for hard-wired Internet, and it never will be. But the ability to get that much bandwidth into an area that doesn't have wired Internet wihtout requiring special crews to come in and set up the infrastructure (like you would for geostationary dishes) is a huge step forward for disaster relief. With capabilities like this now available, we (the tech community) need to look at options to be able to extend this connectivity from a point source across a wider area (ways to do mesh and have it not collapse, understanding channnel allocations, sane directional antenna uses, etc) including how to provide power. And also take a careful look at the bandwith that apps are using and find ones that are sane to use. Since (almost) everyone has phones as endpoints now, having the ability to put a voip app on the phones and have them able to call and text chat freely within the connectivity bubble without any need to use the external bandwith, but be able to connect out in a fairly transparent manner (think how long distance calls were something significant 40-50 years ago, but were still using the same equipment and basic process). Can such apps indicate to the user if they are talking to someone really local (say sharing the same wifi), or more remote, so that they can How can such apps be made available to the people with phones? (Apple makes it really hard to side-load apps for example), How can the services get bundled (raspverry pi or live CD linux images that provide these services and the app images to download for example). What can be done with OpenWRT builds to make turnkey conversions of APs into bandwidth-efficient mesh nodes. This includes how a bit of wire can go a long way towards making a wifi system work better. How can we bundle lessons for techies on the ground to teach them what to do (and what not to do) in setting these things up? David Lang ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 2022-03-04 18:14 ` David Lang @ 2022-03-04 18:21 ` Ben Greear 2022-03-04 18:30 ` David Lang 2022-03-05 0:14 ` Ulrich Speidel 1 sibling, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread From: Ben Greear @ 2022-03-04 18:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Lang; +Cc: starlink On 3/4/22 10:14 AM, David Lang wrote: > On Fri, 4 Mar 2022, Ulrich Speidel wrote: > >> In terms of Starlink - I really think that it's a red herring, at least for now. As I said, if Starlink can't muster anywhere near enough satellite capacity >> to serve all of a small town in Montana that's surrounded by gateways close by, then it's not going to be replacing the Internet as we know it in a country >> 60% larger in area and 40 x larger in population. At best it might be able to provide some backup in a relatively small number of places. > > It depends on what you set as your requirements. If you are talking about everyone streaming video, you are correct, but if you talk about less bandwidth > intensive uses, a little bandwidth goes a long ways. > > There's also FAR more of a difference between nothing and low bandwidth than between low and high bandwidth. > > Telephone audio is an 64Mb stream, without compression, email and text chat are very low bandwidth. > > 20 years ago, you could have an office of 100 employees living on a 1.5Mb Internet connection and have people very happy. A single dishy is 100x this. > > I agree that Starlink is not a full replacement for hard-wired Internet, and it never will be. But the ability to get that much bandwidth into an area that > doesn't have wired Internet wihtout requiring special crews to come in and set up the infrastructure (like you would for geostationary dishes) is a huge step > forward for disaster relief. > > With capabilities like this now available, we (the tech community) need to look at options to be able to extend this connectivity from a point source across a > wider area (ways to do mesh and have it not collapse, understanding channnel allocations, sane directional antenna uses, etc) including how to provide power. > > And also take a careful look at the bandwith that apps are using and find ones that are sane to use. Since (almost) everyone has phones as endpoints now, having > the ability to put a voip app on the phones and have them able to call and text chat freely within the connectivity bubble without any need to use the external > bandwith, but be able to connect out in a fairly transparent manner (think how long distance calls were something significant 40-50 years ago, but were still > using the same equipment and basic process). Can such apps indicate to the user if they are talking to someone really local (say sharing the same wifi), or more > remote, so that they can > > How can such apps be made available to the people with phones? (Apple makes it really hard to side-load apps for example), How can the services get bundled > (raspverry pi or live CD linux images that provide these services and the app images to download for example). What can be done with OpenWRT builds to make > turnkey conversions of APs into bandwidth-efficient mesh nodes. This includes how a bit of wire can go a long way towards making a wifi system work better. I've been using some sub $100 android phones for testing. They typically come loaded with crap-ware, but that could be fixed, and it would be a convenient wifi-only calling phone (and of course it could do a lot more). If someone has ability to drop a starlink dish, they could add a small pack of phones to the drop. That is way more helpful that some hacked together rpi or other cumbersome kludge, and at similar price point. As for a 'voip' app, there are plenty of those already, including shiny 'free' commercial offerings. Thanks, Ben -- Ben Greear <greearb@candelatech.com> Candela Technologies Inc http://www.candelatech.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 2022-03-04 18:21 ` Ben Greear @ 2022-03-04 18:30 ` David Lang 0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread From: David Lang @ 2022-03-04 18:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ben Greear; +Cc: David Lang, starlink On Fri, 4 Mar 2022, Ben Greear wrote: > On 3/4/22 10:14 AM, David Lang wrote: >> On Fri, 4 Mar 2022, Ulrich Speidel wrote: >> >>> In terms of Starlink - I really think that it's a red herring, at least >>> for now. As I said, if Starlink can't muster anywhere near enough >>> satellite capacity to serve all of a small town in Montana that's >>> surrounded by gateways close by, then it's not going to be replacing the >>> Internet as we know it in a country 60% larger in area and 40 x larger in >>> population. At best it might be able to provide some backup in a >>> relatively small number of places. >> >> It depends on what you set as your requirements. If you are talking about >> everyone streaming video, you are correct, but if you talk about less >> bandwidth intensive uses, a little bandwidth goes a long ways. >> >> There's also FAR more of a difference between nothing and low bandwidth >> than between low and high bandwidth. >> >> Telephone audio is an 64Mb stream, without compression, email and text chat >> are very low bandwidth. >> >> 20 years ago, you could have an office of 100 employees living on a 1.5Mb >> Internet connection and have people very happy. A single dishy is 100x >> this. >> >> I agree that Starlink is not a full replacement for hard-wired Internet, >> and it never will be. But the ability to get that much bandwidth into an >> area that doesn't have wired Internet wihtout requiring special crews to >> come in and set up the infrastructure (like you would for geostationary >> dishes) is a huge step forward for disaster relief. >> >> With capabilities like this now available, we (the tech community) need to >> look at options to be able to extend this connectivity from a point source >> across a wider area (ways to do mesh and have it not collapse, >> understanding channnel allocations, sane directional antenna uses, etc) >> including how to provide power. >> >> And also take a careful look at the bandwith that apps are using and find >> ones that are sane to use. Since (almost) everyone has phones as endpoints >> now, having the ability to put a voip app on the phones and have them able >> to call and text chat freely within the connectivity bubble without any >> need to use the external bandwith, but be able to connect out in a fairly >> transparent manner (think how long distance calls were something >> significant 40-50 years ago, but were still using the same equipment and >> basic process). Can such apps indicate to the user if they are talking to >> someone really local (say sharing the same wifi), or more remote, so that >> they can >> >> How can such apps be made available to the people with phones? (Apple makes >> it really hard to side-load apps for example), How can the services get >> bundled (raspverry pi or live CD linux images that provide these services >> and the app images to download for example). What can be done with OpenWRT >> builds to make turnkey conversions of APs into bandwidth-efficient mesh >> nodes. This includes how a bit of wire can go a long way towards making a >> wifi system work better. > > I've been using some sub $100 android phones for testing. They typically come > loaded with crap-ware, but that could be fixed, and it would be a convenient > wifi-only calling phone (and of course it could do a lot more). If someone > has ability to drop a starlink dish, they could add a small pack of phones to > the drop. That is way more helpful that some hacked together rpi or other > cumbersome kludge, and at similar price point. > > As for a 'voip' app, there are plenty of those already, including shiny > 'free' commercial offerings. I'm not saying new apps need to be written, I'm saying that the apps that can work in such an environment need to be identified. How many of those 'free' commecial offerings will work without talking to their central servers? find ones that can be configured to talk to local servers running on 'low end' equipment I'm not looking for something kluged together that only an expert can maintain, I'm looking for something put together by experts so that non-experts can deploy it onto common, cheap hardware. I've seen too many 'disaster relief kits' that get put together that use super hardened (and rare) hardware that's abandoned by the vendor soon afte it ships. Send something that can be used people with the phones they aready have in their pockets, not something that requied $5-10k custom tablets (a real example I saw). APs may need to get shipped with a dishy as reflashing them is a fairly expert move, but there should be little need to ship endpoints. focus on the instructions, picking apps to use, and providing local servers to use. David Lang ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 2022-03-04 18:14 ` David Lang 2022-03-04 18:21 ` Ben Greear @ 2022-03-05 0:14 ` Ulrich Speidel 2022-03-05 6:38 ` Dick Roy 2022-03-05 15:25 ` Larry Press 1 sibling, 2 replies; 19+ messages in thread From: Ulrich Speidel @ 2022-03-05 0:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Lang; +Cc: Mike Puchol, starlink True, but Starlink is designed as a high bandwidth, low latency (OK, we won't mention their bufferbloat issues again here), and (currently) low user density service. Bandwidth-wise, good old Shannon and Hartley are agnostic about whether you divide your channel between 1 or a million users. But in real communication systems that need to manage handovers and joining and departing customers, there is a certain amount of overhead involved in managing these, and the protocols used for this generally have a significant footprint in them that reflects the kind of situation their designer had in mind. E.g., since GSM, burst frames have been designed to reflect the designer's expectation as to how many end users a base station would service. I'd be very surprised if this was any different for Starlink. Remember, Starlink's launch and initial target market was the American rural and underserved suburban populace. Pretty much all of them already had a low bandwidth service, it was high bandwidth service they needed. So I'd expect Starlink to be designed around a rather constrained number of Dishy clients per satellite. And yes I think it'd be a good idea to use mesh networks etc. in order to distribute Starlink resource to more people there. But I guess that this is already happening with other types of connectivity over there, too. On 5/03/2022 7:14 am, David Lang wrote: > On Fri, 4 Mar 2022, Ulrich Speidel wrote: > >> In terms of Starlink - I really think that it's a red herring, at >> least for now. As I said, if Starlink can't muster anywhere near >> enough satellite capacity to serve all of a small town in Montana >> that's surrounded by gateways close by, then it's not going to be >> replacing the Internet as we know it in a country 60% larger in area >> and 40 x larger in population. At best it might be able to provide >> some backup in a relatively small number of places. > > It depends on what you set as your requirements. If you are talking > about everyone streaming video, you are correct, but if you talk about > less bandwidth intensive uses, a little bandwidth goes a long ways. > > There's also FAR more of a difference between nothing and low > bandwidth than between low and high bandwidth. > > Telephone audio is an 64Mb stream, without compression, email and text > chat are very low bandwidth. > > 20 years ago, you could have an office of 100 employees living on a > 1.5Mb Internet connection and have people very happy. A single dishy > is 100x this. > > I agree that Starlink is not a full replacement for hard-wired > Internet, and it never will be. But the ability to get that much > bandwidth into an area that doesn't have wired Internet wihtout > requiring special crews to come in and set up the infrastructure (like > you would for geostationary dishes) is a huge step forward for > disaster relief. > > With capabilities like this now available, we (the tech community) > need to look at options to be able to extend this connectivity from a > point source across a wider area (ways to do mesh and have it not > collapse, understanding channnel allocations, sane directional antenna > uses, etc) including how to provide power. > > And also take a careful look at the bandwith that apps are using and > find ones that are sane to use. Since (almost) everyone has phones as > endpoints now, having the ability to put a voip app on the phones and > have them able to call and text chat freely within the connectivity > bubble without any need to use the external bandwith, but be able to > connect out in a fairly transparent manner (think how long distance > calls were something significant 40-50 years ago, but were still using > the same equipment and basic process). Can such apps indicate to the > user if they are talking to someone really local (say sharing the same > wifi), or more remote, so that they can > > How can such apps be made available to the people with phones? (Apple > makes it really hard to side-load apps for example), How can the > services get bundled (raspverry pi or live CD linux images that > provide these services and the app images to download for example). > What can be done with OpenWRT builds to make turnkey conversions of > APs into bandwidth-efficient mesh nodes. This includes how a bit of > wire can go a long way towards making a wifi system work better. > > How can we bundle lessons for techies on the ground to teach them what > to do (and what not to do) in setting these things up? > > David Lang > -- **************************************************************** Dr. Ulrich Speidel School of Computer Science Room 303S.594 (City Campus) The University of Auckland u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ **************************************************************** ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 2022-03-05 0:14 ` Ulrich Speidel @ 2022-03-05 6:38 ` Dick Roy 2022-03-05 9:42 ` Ulrich Speidel 2022-03-05 15:25 ` Larry Press 1 sibling, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread From: Dick Roy @ 2022-03-05 6:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 'Ulrich Speidel', 'David Lang'; +Cc: starlink [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5923 bytes --] -----Original Message----- From: Starlink [mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf Of Ulrich Speidel Sent: Friday, March 4, 2022 4:14 PM To: David Lang Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 True, but Starlink is designed as a high bandwidth, low latency (OK, we won't mention their bufferbloat issues again here), and (currently) low user density service. Bandwidth-wise, good old Shannon and Hartley are agnostic about whether you divide your channel between 1 or a million users. [RR] But they are assuming a "single" channel in the time domain. When you can take advantage of other dimensions (eg. space) to create more channels, (aka SDMA) the capacity goes up! But in real communication systems that need to manage handovers and joining and departing customers, there is a certain amount of overhead involved in managing these, and the protocols used for this generally have a significant footprint in them that reflects the kind of situation their designer had in mind. E.g., since GSM, burst frames have been designed to reflect the designer's expectation as to how many end users a base station would service. I'd be very surprised if this was any different for Starlink. [RR] When you have more dimensions to work with/in (aka SDMA), the problems you note get easier to solve! Just watch the early 60's TV episode of Maverick about the farmers and the poker game and you will see how it can be done! WARNING: it's in black and white so don't try to adjust your viewing screen/TV set :^)))) Remember, Starlink's launch and initial target market was the American rural and underserved suburban populace. Pretty much all of them already had a low bandwidth service, it was high bandwidth service they needed. So I'd expect Starlink to be designed around a rather constrained number of Dishy clients per satellite. And yes I think it'd be a good idea to use mesh networks etc. in order to distribute Starlink resource to more people there. But I guess that this is already happening with other types of connectivity over there, too. On 5/03/2022 7:14 am, David Lang wrote: > On Fri, 4 Mar 2022, Ulrich Speidel wrote: > >> In terms of Starlink - I really think that it's a red herring, at >> least for now. As I said, if Starlink can't muster anywhere near >> enough satellite capacity to serve all of a small town in Montana >> that's surrounded by gateways close by, then it's not going to be >> replacing the Internet as we know it in a country 60% larger in area >> and 40 x larger in population. At best it might be able to provide >> some backup in a relatively small number of places. > > It depends on what you set as your requirements. If you are talking > about everyone streaming video, you are correct, but if you talk about > less bandwidth intensive uses, a little bandwidth goes a long ways. > > There's also FAR more of a difference between nothing and low > bandwidth than between low and high bandwidth. > > Telephone audio is an 64Mb stream, without compression, email and text > chat are very low bandwidth. > > 20 years ago, you could have an office of 100 employees living on a > 1.5Mb Internet connection and have people very happy. A single dishy > is 100x this. > > I agree that Starlink is not a full replacement for hard-wired > Internet, and it never will be. But the ability to get that much > bandwidth into an area that doesn't have wired Internet wihtout > requiring special crews to come in and set up the infrastructure (like > you would for geostationary dishes) is a huge step forward for > disaster relief. > > With capabilities like this now available, we (the tech community) > need to look at options to be able to extend this connectivity from a > point source across a wider area (ways to do mesh and have it not > collapse, understanding channnel allocations, sane directional antenna > uses, etc) including how to provide power. > > And also take a careful look at the bandwith that apps are using and > find ones that are sane to use. Since (almost) everyone has phones as > endpoints now, having the ability to put a voip app on the phones and > have them able to call and text chat freely within the connectivity > bubble without any need to use the external bandwith, but be able to > connect out in a fairly transparent manner (think how long distance > calls were something significant 40-50 years ago, but were still using > the same equipment and basic process). Can such apps indicate to the > user if they are talking to someone really local (say sharing the same > wifi), or more remote, so that they can > > How can such apps be made available to the people with phones? (Apple > makes it really hard to side-load apps for example), How can the > services get bundled (raspverry pi or live CD linux images that > provide these services and the app images to download for example). > What can be done with OpenWRT builds to make turnkey conversions of > APs into bandwidth-efficient mesh nodes. This includes how a bit of > wire can go a long way towards making a wifi system work better. > > How can we bundle lessons for techies on the ground to teach them what > to do (and what not to do) in setting these things up? > > David Lang > -- **************************************************************** Dr. Ulrich Speidel School of Computer Science Room 303S.594 (City Campus) The University of Auckland u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ **************************************************************** _______________________________________________ Starlink mailing list Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 21809 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 2022-03-05 6:38 ` Dick Roy @ 2022-03-05 9:42 ` Ulrich Speidel 2022-03-05 10:10 ` David Lang 2022-03-05 18:26 ` Dick Roy 0 siblings, 2 replies; 19+ messages in thread From: Ulrich Speidel @ 2022-03-05 9:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: dickroy, 'David Lang'; +Cc: starlink [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1927 bytes --] On 5/03/2022 7:38 pm, Dick Roy wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Starlink [mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On > Behalf Of Ulrich Speidel > Sent: Friday, March 4, 2022 4:14 PM > To: David Lang > Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 > > True, but Starlink is designed as a high bandwidth, low latency (OK, we > > won't mention their bufferbloat issues again here), and (currently) low > > user density service. > > Bandwidth-wise, good old Shannon and Hartley are agnostic about whether > > you divide your channel between 1 or a million users. > > */[RR] But they are assuming a “single” channel in the time domain. > When you can take advantage of other dimensions (eg. space) to create > more channels, (aka SDMA) the capacity goes up!/* > /*Taken as read - but it's beside the point. Shannon-Hartley allows you to do what was proposed - turning a channel that supplies a small number of users with a lot of capacity each into one that supplies a large number of users with a little capacity each, and of course if you add diversity (space, polarisation, ...) then this applies even more so. But the point is that each communication system is designed around an expectation of how many users will access it, and that you can't simply take an existing technology and somehow assume that it will work with a larger number of users just because it's theoretically possible. Basically, you can't simply throw more dishys at the problem if you need to serve more users.*/ -- **************************************************************** Dr. Ulrich Speidel School of Computer Science Room 303S.594 (City Campus) The University of Auckland u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ **************************************************************** [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 6650 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 2022-03-05 9:42 ` Ulrich Speidel @ 2022-03-05 10:10 ` David Lang 2022-03-05 18:26 ` Dick Roy 1 sibling, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread From: David Lang @ 2022-03-05 10:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ulrich Speidel; +Cc: dickroy, 'David Lang', starlink [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2138 bytes --] On Sat, 5 Mar 2022, Ulrich Speidel wrote: > On 5/03/2022 7:38 pm, Dick Roy wrote: >> >> */[RR] But they are assuming a “single” channel in the time domain. When >> you can take advantage of other dimensions (eg. space) to create more >> channels, (aka SDMA) the capacity goes up!/* >> > /*Taken as read - but it's beside the point. Shannon-Hartley allows you to do > what was proposed - turning a channel that supplies a small number of users > with a lot of capacity each into one that supplies a large number of users > with a little capacity each, and of course if you add diversity (space, > polarisation, ...) then this applies even more so. But the point is that each > communication system is designed around an expectation of how many users will > access it, and that you can't simply take an existing technology and somehow > assume that it will work with a larger number of users just because it's > theoretically possible. Basically, you can't simply throw more dishys at the > problem if you need to serve more users.*/ I don't think anyone is suggesting throwing a massive number of dishys at the problem, instead I'm saying that one dishy can support a rather larger number of people than one household (with appropriate app selection) Up until about a year ago, the best that I could get at my house was a 8/1 pair of bonded DSL lines (supposed to be a 10/2, but reliability). That actually supported 3 people watching videos plus a mail server and various downloading (and one of the video watching was commonly replaced by video meetings). I did try to avoid large downloads during meetings :-) Currently I have the 8/1 DSL and a 600MB cable (and haven't yet integrated starlink), but I don't always notice when the cable goes out right away (without doing something extremely bandwidth heavy), although if it drops to 4/.5 (cable and one DSL down), it's pretty noticable. people who are used to multi hundred Mb or Gb lines don't realize that a lot of the stuff they use (outside of bulk downloads) isn't really using that much bandwidth (insert bufferbloat rant here :-) ) David Lang ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 2022-03-05 9:42 ` Ulrich Speidel 2022-03-05 10:10 ` David Lang @ 2022-03-05 18:26 ` Dick Roy 1 sibling, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread From: Dick Roy @ 2022-03-05 18:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 'Ulrich Speidel', 'David Lang'; +Cc: starlink [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2756 bytes --] _____ From: Ulrich Speidel [mailto:u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz] Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2022 1:43 AM To: dickroy@alum.mit.edu; 'David Lang' Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 On 5/03/2022 7:38 pm, Dick Roy wrote: -----Original Message----- From: Starlink [mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf Of Ulrich Speidel Sent: Friday, March 4, 2022 4:14 PM To: David Lang Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 True, but Starlink is designed as a high bandwidth, low latency (OK, we won't mention their bufferbloat issues again here), and (currently) low user density service. Bandwidth-wise, good old Shannon and Hartley are agnostic about whether you divide your channel between 1 or a million users. [RR] But they are assuming a "single" channel in the time domain. When you can take advantage of other dimensions (eg. space) to create more channels, (aka SDMA) the capacity goes up! Taken as read - but it's beside the point. Shannon-Hartley allows you to do what was proposed - turning a channel that supplies a small number of users with a lot of capacity each into one that supplies a large number of users with a little capacity each, and of course if you add diversity (space, polarisation, ...) then this applies even more so. But the point is that each communication system is designed around an expectation of how many users will access it, and that you can't simply take an existing technology and somehow assume that it will work with a larger number of users just because it's theoretically possible. Basically, you can't simply throw more dishys at the problem if you need to serve more users. [RR] Actually, to a certain extent it depends on how the "dishys are/could be connected" and how the satellites overhead are "configured", but that's a story for another day and related to the point about the Maverick show ))). That said, I agree that systems have to be and are designed/optimized to handle a specified load (really a range of loads) and can not be expected to perform as well outside that range, and I agree that anyone who thinks that Shannon can be simply be ignored (as was tried in the past by a very famous corporation we all know all too well) is simply delusional. As the saying goes, "you can not make chicken salad out of chicken feathers!" -- **************************************************************** Dr. Ulrich Speidel School of Computer Science Room 303S.594 (City Campus) The University of Auckland u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ **************************************************************** [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 11707 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 2022-03-05 0:14 ` Ulrich Speidel 2022-03-05 6:38 ` Dick Roy @ 2022-03-05 15:25 ` Larry Press 2022-03-06 1:50 ` Ulrich Speidel 1 sibling, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread From: Larry Press @ 2022-03-05 15:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ulrich Speidel, David Lang; +Cc: starlink [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 6399 bytes --] > But that's exactly the situation that would make it a party to the conflict and its user a target. How many terminals do you think they have and who -- which class of person -- do you think has them? I understand the users would be targets, but it will be difficult to locate terminals in the hands of a few people who are able to move around a 233,000 square mile country. Furthermore, the terminals will not be transmitting continuously, and they can be a distance from the people using them. The benefits of being able to communicate seem to outweigh the risk of detection and destruction. Furthermore, finding and destroying a terminal would cost Russia a lot and the Ukrainians would still have n-1 terminals. ________________________________ From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of Ulrich Speidel <u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz> Sent: Friday, March 4, 2022 4:14 PM To: David Lang <david@lang.hm> Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 True, but Starlink is designed as a high bandwidth, low latency (OK, we won't mention their bufferbloat issues again here), and (currently) low user density service. Bandwidth-wise, good old Shannon and Hartley are agnostic about whether you divide your channel between 1 or a million users. But in real communication systems that need to manage handovers and joining and departing customers, there is a certain amount of overhead involved in managing these, and the protocols used for this generally have a significant footprint in them that reflects the kind of situation their designer had in mind. E.g., since GSM, burst frames have been designed to reflect the designer's expectation as to how many end users a base station would service. I'd be very surprised if this was any different for Starlink. Remember, Starlink's launch and initial target market was the American rural and underserved suburban populace. Pretty much all of them already had a low bandwidth service, it was high bandwidth service they needed. So I'd expect Starlink to be designed around a rather constrained number of Dishy clients per satellite. And yes I think it'd be a good idea to use mesh networks etc. in order to distribute Starlink resource to more people there. But I guess that this is already happening with other types of connectivity over there, too. On 5/03/2022 7:14 am, David Lang wrote: > On Fri, 4 Mar 2022, Ulrich Speidel wrote: > >> In terms of Starlink - I really think that it's a red herring, at >> least for now. As I said, if Starlink can't muster anywhere near >> enough satellite capacity to serve all of a small town in Montana >> that's surrounded by gateways close by, then it's not going to be >> replacing the Internet as we know it in a country 60% larger in area >> and 40 x larger in population. At best it might be able to provide >> some backup in a relatively small number of places. > > It depends on what you set as your requirements. If you are talking > about everyone streaming video, you are correct, but if you talk about > less bandwidth intensive uses, a little bandwidth goes a long ways. > > There's also FAR more of a difference between nothing and low > bandwidth than between low and high bandwidth. > > Telephone audio is an 64Mb stream, without compression, email and text > chat are very low bandwidth. > > 20 years ago, you could have an office of 100 employees living on a > 1.5Mb Internet connection and have people very happy. A single dishy > is 100x this. > > I agree that Starlink is not a full replacement for hard-wired > Internet, and it never will be. But the ability to get that much > bandwidth into an area that doesn't have wired Internet wihtout > requiring special crews to come in and set up the infrastructure (like > you would for geostationary dishes) is a huge step forward for > disaster relief. > > With capabilities like this now available, we (the tech community) > need to look at options to be able to extend this connectivity from a > point source across a wider area (ways to do mesh and have it not > collapse, understanding channnel allocations, sane directional antenna > uses, etc) including how to provide power. > > And also take a careful look at the bandwith that apps are using and > find ones that are sane to use. Since (almost) everyone has phones as > endpoints now, having the ability to put a voip app on the phones and > have them able to call and text chat freely within the connectivity > bubble without any need to use the external bandwith, but be able to > connect out in a fairly transparent manner (think how long distance > calls were something significant 40-50 years ago, but were still using > the same equipment and basic process). Can such apps indicate to the > user if they are talking to someone really local (say sharing the same > wifi), or more remote, so that they can > > How can such apps be made available to the people with phones? (Apple > makes it really hard to side-load apps for example), How can the > services get bundled (raspverry pi or live CD linux images that > provide these services and the app images to download for example). > What can be done with OpenWRT builds to make turnkey conversions of > APs into bandwidth-efficient mesh nodes. This includes how a bit of > wire can go a long way towards making a wifi system work better. > > How can we bundle lessons for techies on the ground to teach them what > to do (and what not to do) in setting these things up? > > David Lang > -- **************************************************************** Dr. Ulrich Speidel School of Computer Science Room 303S.594 (City Campus) The University of Auckland u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/*ulrich/__;fg!!P7nkOOY!phUrdzfjr6YUdNCfv4tjZFz3zZe-9hdDlsCjcSc6gmEZDF7mfjlgKK1uZU2tMQmBrxlEaRbKLFMR0TZ1A7RFMULV$ **************************************************************** _______________________________________________ Starlink mailing list Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!phUrdzfjr6YUdNCfv4tjZFz3zZe-9hdDlsCjcSc6gmEZDF7mfjlgKK1uZU2tMQmBrxlEaRbKLFMR0TZ1A-oFbS8W$ [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 9408 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 2022-03-05 15:25 ` Larry Press @ 2022-03-06 1:50 ` Ulrich Speidel 0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread From: Ulrich Speidel @ 2022-03-06 1:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Larry Press, David Lang; +Cc: starlink [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2503 bytes --] On 6/03/2022 4:25 am, Larry Press wrote: > > But that's exactly the situation that would make it a party to the conflict and its user a > target. > > How many terminals do you think they have and who -- which class of > person -- do you think has them? Starlink: With the given ground station arrangement, my best guess would be a few hundred. Who has them: The Ukrainian government, FAIK, exclusively. Non-Starlink: Given that the mobile networks and fixed Internet are still operational in most places, including some overrun by the Russians, I'd say probably a couple of dozen million? Any mobile phone with data connectivity can in principle be shared among multiple users as a WiFi hotspot, as can any domestic DSL or fibre connection. I would expect there to be significant moves in these networks towards backhaul diversification on the provider side as well as towards mesh-ification on the user side. Dishy-sized satellite TV antennas are common household items in Ukraine (just have a look at Google Street View), and they have a population that is by and large well educated and technically nimble and literate. So I'd expect Wi-Fi mesh networks using satellite dishes for range extension to become common, too. But they don't get the PR miles out of this that Starlink do. Only Saint Elon does ;-) BTW: There has been a serious cyber attack on ViaSat's central and eastern European KA-SAT services, likely to be connected to the war in Ukraine. Collateral damage? The remote monitoring and maintenance facilities on around 3,000 German wind turbines. Google translation of the article in Der Spiegel is here: https://www-spiegel-de.translate.goog/netzwelt/web/viasat-satellitennetzwerk-offenbar-gezielt-in-osteuropa-gehackt-a-afd98117-5c32-4946-ab8a-619f1e7af024?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp The case was flagged by Andreas Knopp from Bundeswehr University in Munich, a well-known researcher in the satcom sector (I've met him so I know he exists ;-)): https://idw--online-de.translate.goog/de/news789489?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp -- **************************************************************** Dr. Ulrich Speidel School of Computer Science Room 303S.594 (City Campus) The University of Auckland u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ **************************************************************** [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4838 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
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2022-03-03 23:47 ` [Starlink] Starlink Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6 David P. Reed
2022-03-04 5:06 ` Ulrich Speidel
2022-03-04 7:00 ` Mike Puchol
2022-03-04 8:41 ` David Lang
2022-03-04 9:44 ` Ulrich Speidel
2022-03-04 17:07 ` Larry Press
2022-03-04 23:58 ` Ulrich Speidel
2022-03-04 17:08 ` Dave Täht
2022-03-04 17:10 ` Dave Taht
2022-03-04 18:14 ` David Lang
2022-03-04 18:21 ` Ben Greear
2022-03-04 18:30 ` David Lang
2022-03-05 0:14 ` Ulrich Speidel
2022-03-05 6:38 ` Dick Roy
2022-03-05 9:42 ` Ulrich Speidel
2022-03-05 10:10 ` David Lang
2022-03-05 18:26 ` Dick Roy
2022-03-05 15:25 ` Larry Press
2022-03-06 1:50 ` Ulrich Speidel
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