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Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2023 18:57:37 -0000 Since the speed of light is relatively fixed, I wonder if we could come up with a memorable equation for how much buggering one needs for a given RTT? Preferably as memorable as E=3DMC^2 B <=3D C / RTT ? (:-)) --dave On 1/2/23 13:44, Ben Greear via Starlink wrote: > On 1/2/23 9:35 AM, David Fern=C3=A1ndez via Starlink wrote: >> Just wondering how comes that buffering is not standardized. Wondering >> why buffer sizes are left to implementation decisions of possibly >> clueless vendors, which devices can worsen the performance of the >> network. > > There is no perfect answer, and every configuration has some trade-off. > > It is a long grind of tricky code and careful and widely varied testing > to make progress in this area. > > Thanks, > Ben > >> >>> Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 19:00:56 -0500 (EST) >>> From: "David P. Reed" >>> To: starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] Fwd: [Make-wifi-fast] make-wifi-fast >>> Message-ID: <1671840056.20758968@mobile.rackspace.com> >>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=3DUTF-8 >>> >>> Sorry for front posting. The L2 and L3 >>> are following the "end to end argument". The function of the L2 >>> network is >>> to not queue more than absolutely necessary. >>> The function at L3 is to respond to congestion signals by reducing >>> input to >>> a fair share of available capacity, quickly, cooperating with other L3 >>> protocols. >>> >>> This is understood by clueful L2 and L3 folks. >>> >>> Clueless vendors dominate the L2 vendor space. Sadly. They refuse to >>> stop >>> over buffering. >>> >>> >>> Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2022 16:02:03 +0100 >>> : David Fern=C3=A1ndez >>> To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] Fwd: [Make-wifi-fast] make-wifi-fast >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Sorry, maybe I did not craft the subject correctly. I am receiving the >>> daily digest of the list, not individual messages. >>> >>> I have seen before that the L2 engineers (Wi-Fi, DVB...) and the >>> Internet engineers (L3) are trying to solve the same issue (QoS, >>> congestion control) without being aware of what each other are doing >>> and not even getting coordinated. I am afraid that nowadays we have >>> even the application layer engineers doing their own stuff (DASH, >>> CDNs...). >>> >>> Some time ago, I worked in a project about cross-layer optimization >>> techniques for SATCOM systems, where one of the issues was to try to >>> optimize transport layer performance with L2 info. I was just a mere >>> observer of what academy people in the consortium where proposing. >>> >>> That was quite long ago: >>> https://artes.esa.int/projects/ipfriendly-crosslayer-optimization-adapt= ive-satellite-systems >>> >>> >>> Today I came across this: >>> https://www.elektormagazine.com/news/white-paper-why-wi-fi-6-goes-hand-= in-hand-with-cellular-to-enable-the-hyper-connected-enterprise-future >>> >>> >>> "the performance uplift of Wi-Fi 6 over Wi-Fi 5 is substantial and >>> more than sufficient to support innovative use cases such as automated >>> guided vehicles, industrial robots and many other applications." >>> >>> This sound like Wi-Fi 6 will support low latency and will have a good >>> QoS support. Maybe... >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> David >>> >>> 2022-12-21 8:54 GMT+01:00, Sebastian Moeller : >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> See [SM] below. >>>> >>>> On 21 December 2022 08:37:27 CET, "David Fern=C3=A1ndez via Starlink" >>>> wrote: >>>>> What about this? >>>>> https://www.wi-fi.org/discover-wi-fi/wi-fi-certified-wmm-programs >>>>> >>>>> Isn't this Wi-Fi MM (Multimedia) supposed to solve Wi-Fi QoS issues? >>>> >>>> [SM] In home network reality it failed to do so. I would >>>> guess >>>> partly because the admission control component is optional and as >>>> far as I >>>> can tell not available in the usual WiFi routers and APs. A free >>>> for all >>>> priority system that in addition diminishes the total achievable >>>> throughput >>>> when the higher priority tiers are used introduces at least as much >>>> QoS >>>> issues a it solves IMHO. This might be different for 'enterprise WiFi >>>> gear' >>>> but I have no experience with that... >>>> >>>> Regard >>>> Sebastian >>>> >>>> P.S.: This feels like you might responded to a different thread >>>> than the >>>> iperf2 one we are in right now? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2022 11:04:13 -0800 >>>>>> From: rjmcmahon >>>>>> To: Sebastian Moeller >>>>>> Cc: rjmcmahon via Make-wifi-fast >>>>>> , Dave T=C3=A4ht >>>>>> , Rpm , libreqos >>>>>> >>> , Dave Taht via Starlink >>>>>> , bloat >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] Fwd: [Make-wifi-fast] make-wifi-fast >>>>>> 2016 &=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 crusader >>>>>> Message-ID: >>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8; format=3Dflowed >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for the well-written response Sebastian. I need to think more >>>>>> about the load vs no load OWD differentials and maybe offer that >>>>>> as an >>>>>> integrated test. Thanks for bringing it up (again.) I do think a >>>>>> low-duty cycle bounceback test to the AP could be interesting too. >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't know of any projects working on iperf 2 & containers but >>>>>> it has >>>>>> been suggested as useful. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bob >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Starlink mailing list >>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. >>>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >> > > -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. 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