Re: [Starlink] It’s the Latency, FCC

Dave Taht
2024-05-14T17:31:26Z

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I agree the number 3s are the most motivated. For example I think mediatek
is doing a massive come from behind win vs Broadcom and Qualcomm in the
wifi ap market

On Wed, May 1, 2024, 12:26 PM Eugene Y Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.org> wrote:

> Pick up the glove?
> I can be part of a team. I am not as close as to the equipment as I used
> to be.
> I need help assembling a demo configuration that can engage the
> subscribers.
> Building a local team for this has been very slow going.
>
> I like helping a market #3 or #4 disrupt an incumbent. In most cases I
> have seen, the #2 already has a game plan for competing with #1. A distant
> #3 is usually the most hungry.
>
> Gene.
> ----------------------------------------------
> Eugene Chang
> IEEE Life Senior Member
> IEEE Communications Society & Signal Processing Society,
> Hawaii Chapter Chair
> IEEE Life Member Affinity Group Hawaii Chair
> IEEE Entrepreneurship, Mentor
> eugene.chang@ieee.org
> m 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)
>
>
>
> On Apr 30, 2024, at 9:27 PM, Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Basically, Eugene, the situation you are describing is calling for a
> competitor to disrupt them!
>
> This is such an old story - so many ISPs, especially WIPSs, started just
> because they either didn't have any option or all those options available
> were really terrible.
>
> Don't you want to pick up the glove? :P
>
> All the best,
>
> Frank
>
> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>
>
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>
> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>
> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>
> Skype: casioa5302ca
>
> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 30, 2024 at 11:53 PM Eugene Y Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Frank,
>> Thank you. What you suggest makes sense if it was objective!
>>
>> In my neighborhood, the ISP’s organization will feel they have nothing to
>> learn from outsiders. (Worst, both major ISPs are just a subsidiary of
>> another organization. They just implement corporate standards. The local
>> managers are not motivated to deviate from their corporate marching orders.)
>>
>> A public promotion (campaign) of modern best practices is needed. Then I
>> need to have this campaign spill over to the subscriber community. The
>> business community needs to be educated that their productivity will
>> improve. The social leaders need to learn that their community will get
>> better service. Then, and only then, can I see the ISP feeling the need to
>> improve. It helps if the improvement is just open-source software on their
>> hardware investment.
>>
>>
>> Gene
>> ----------------------------------------------
>> Eugene Chang
>> IEEE Life Senior Member
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 30, 2024, at 11:35 AM, Frantisek Borsik <
>> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Eugene - the easiest thing in the case of your ISP would be tell him
>> about us: https://libreqos.io
>>
>> He can take a look on it, join our support chat and get help if he won't
>> be able to get it up and running:
>> https://chat.libreqos.io/join/fvu3cerayyaumo377xwvpev6/
>>
>> But most of the ISPs don't need to talk with us at all, it's easy to
>> deploy.
>>
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>>
>>
>>
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>>
>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>>
>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>>
>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>>
>> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2024 at 11:22 PM Eugene Y Chang via Starlink <
>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>>> OK. I need help teaching my ISPs that they can do this without
>>> threatening their business model.
>>> Who can help me?
>>>
>>> A public demo? Yes! Are you saying that if our (my) neighborhood ISP
>>> adopted the lessons from the public demo, most of the latency issues would
>>> be solved? What won’t get fixed? How do we make this a widely adopted best
>>> practice? Am I crying over issues that are already fixed? Does this
>>> simplify the issues at the FCC?
>>>
>>> Gene
>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>> Eugene Chang
>>> IEEE Life Senior Member
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 30, 2024, at 11:07 AM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Just fq codel or cake everything and you get all that.
>>>
>>> Libreqos is free software for those that do not want to update their
>>> data plane. Perhaps we should do a public demo of what it can do for every
>>> tech on the planet. Dsl benefits, fiber does also (but it is the stats that
>>> matter more on fiber because the customer wifi becomes bloated)
>>>
>>> Starlink merely fq codeled their wifi and did some aqm work (not codel I
>>> think) to get the amazing results they are getting today. I don't have the
>>> waveform test results handy but they are amazing. I feel a sea change in
>>> the wind...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2024, 12:51 PM Eugene Y Chang via Starlink <
>>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Colin,
>>>> I am overwhelmed with all the reasons that prevent low(er) or
>>>> consistent latency.
>>>> I think that our best ISP offerings should deliver graceful, agile, or
>>>> nimble service. Sure, handle all the high-volume data. The high-volume
>>>> service just shouldn’t preclude graceful service. Yes, the current ISP
>>>> practices fall short. Can we help them improve their service?
>>>>
>>>> Am I asking too much?
>>>>
>>>> Gene
>>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>>> Eugene Chang
>>>> IEEE Life Senior Member
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 30, 2024, at 9:31 AM, Colin_Higbie via Starlink <
>>>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Gene,
>>>>
>>>> I think the lion's share of other people (many brilliant people here)
>>>> on this thread are focused on keeping latency down when under load. I
>>>> generally just read and don't contribute on those discussions, because
>>>> that's not my area of expertise. I only posted my point on bandwidth, not
>>>> to detract from the importance of reducing latency, but to correct what I
>>>> believed to be an important error on minimum bandwidth required to be able
>>>> to perform standard Internet functions.
>>>>
>>>> To my surprise, there was pushback on the figure, so I've responded to
>>>> try to educate this group on streaming usage in the hope that the people
>>>> working on the latency problem under load (core reason for this group to
>>>> exist) can also be aware of the minimum bandwidth needs to ensure they
>>>> don't plan based on bad assumptions.
>>>>
>>>> For a single user, minimum bandwidth (independent of latency) needs to
>>>> be at least 25Mbps assuming the goal is to provide access to all standard
>>>> Internet services. Anything short of that will deny users access to the
>>>> primary streaming services, and more specifically won't be able to watch 4K
>>>> HDR video, which is the market standard for streaming services today and
>>>> likely will remain at that level for the next several years.
>>>>
>>>> I think it's fine to offer lower-cost options that don't deliver 4K HDR
>>>> video (not everyone cares about that), but at least 25Mbps should be
>>>> available to an Internet customer for any new Internet service rollout.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Colin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of
>>>> starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2024 3:05 PM
>>>> To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>> Subject: Starlink Digest, Vol 37, Issue 15
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 1
>>>> Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 09:04:43 -1000
>>>> From: Eugene Y Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.org>
>>>> To: Colin_Higbie <CHigbie1@Higbie.name>, Dave Taht via Starlink
>>>> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] It’s the Latency, FCC
>>>> Message-ID: <438B1BC4-D465-497A-B6BA-700E1D411036@ieee.org>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>
>>>> I am always surprised how complicated these discussions become.
>>>> (Surprised mostly because I forgot the kind of issues this community care
>>>> about.) The discussion doesn’t shed light on the following scenarios.
>>>>
>>>> While watching stream content, activating controls needed to switch
>>>> content sometimes (often?) have long pauses. I attribute that to buffer
>>>> bloat and high latency.
>>>>
>>>> With a happy household user watching streaming media, a second user
>>>> could have terrible shopping experience with Amazon. The interactive
>>>> response could be (is often) horrible. (Personally, I would be doing email
>>>> and working on a shared doc. The Amazon analogy probably applies to more
>>>> people.)
>>>>
>>>> How can we deliver graceful performance to both persons in a household?
>>>> Is seeking graceful performance too complicated to improve?
>>>> (I said “graceful” to allow technical flexibility.)
>>>>
>>>> Gene
>>>> ----------------------------------------------
>>>> Eugene Chang
>>>>
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>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>

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