Re: [Starlink] It’s the Latency, FCC

Frantisek Borsik
2024-03-17T19:27:33Z

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No matter the # of K in resolution or retina/not retina, I would aim for as
much close to or even under 20 ms as an arbitrary number for VR/AR type of
applications.

Sure, we don't need to get there next year, but we are heading this
direction, anyway.

I have read a very detail write-up of the current state of VR headsets
recently, and it touch not only latency, but also the display quality and
prerequisites for human eyes: https://hugo.blog/2024/03/11/vision-pro/

All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

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On Sun, Mar 17, 2024 at 6:00 PM Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink <
starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

>
> Le 16/03/2024 à 20:10, Colin_Higbie via Starlink a écrit :
> > Just to be clear: 4K is absolutely a standard in streaming, with that
> being the most popular TV being sold today. 8K is not and likely won't be
> until 80+" TVs become the norm.
>
> I can agree screen size is one aspect pushing the higher resolutions to
> acceptance, but there are some more signs indicating that 8K is just
> round the corner, and 16K right after it.
>
> The recording consumer devices (cameras) already do 8K recording
> cheaply, since a couple of years.
>
> New acronyms beyond simply resolutions are always ready to come up. HDR
> (high dynamic range) was such an acronym accompanying 4K, so for 8K
> there might be another, bringing more than just resolution, maybe even
> more dynamic range, blacker blacks, wider gamut,-for goggles, etc. for a
> same screen size.
>
> 8K and 16K playing devices might not have a surface to exhibit their
> entire power, but when such surfaces become available, these 8K and 16K
> playing devices will be ready for them, whereas 4K no.
>
> A similar evolution is witnessed by sound and by crypto: 44KHz CD was
> enough for all, until SACD 88KHz came about, then DSD64, DSD128 and
> today DSD 1024, which means DSD 2048 tomorrow. And the Dolby Atmos and
> 11.1 outputs. These too dont yet have the speakers nor the ears to
> take advantage of, but in the future they might. In crypto, the
> 'post-quantum' algorithms are designed to resist brute force by
> computers that dont exist publicly (a few hundred qubit range exists,
> but 20.000 qubit range computer is needed) but when they will, these
> crypto algos will be ready.
>
> Given that, one could imagine the bandwidth and latency by a 3D 16K
> DSD1024 quantum-resistant ciphered multi-party visio-conference with
> gloves, goggles and other interacting devices, with low latency over
> starlink.
>
> The growth trends (4K...) can be identified and the needed latency
> numbers can be projected.
>
> Alex
>
> > The few 8K streaming videos that exist are available primarily as
> YouTube curiosities, with virtually no displays on the market that support
> it yet and none of the big content providers like Netflix or Disney+
> provide 8K streams.
> >
> > Virtually all modern streaming programming on Netflix and Disney+ is 4K
> HDR. That is the standard to support.
> >
> > The objective quality difference to the average human eye between SD and
> HD is huge and changes whether you see the shape of a face or the detailed
> expression on a face. Completely different viewing experience. The
> difference between HD and 4K is significant on today's larger TV displays
> (not so visible on the smaller displays that populated living rooms in
> prior decades). On an OLED TV (not so much on an LCD) the difference
> between SDR and HDR is bigger than the difference between HD and 4K. But
> because HDR generally comes with 4K and tends not to be used much on HD
> streams, the real standards to contrast are HD (in SDR) and 4K in HDR.
> >
> > The minimum bandwidth needed to reliably provide a 4K HDR stream is
> about 15Mbps. Because of the way video compression works, a simpler scene
> may get by with less than 10Mbps. A complex scene (fire, falling confetti
> like at the end of the Super Bowl) can push this up to near 20Mbps.
> Assuming some background activity on a typical network, safest is to think
> of 20Mbps as the effective minimum for 4K. Netflix says 25Mbps to add an
> extra safety margin.
> >
> > True that latency doesn't matter much for streaming. For streaming,
> unlike VoIP, video conferencing, and gaming, bandwidth is more important.
> >
> > VoIP, Video conferencing, and gaming drive low-latency use cases (web
> browsing is also affected, but as long as the page starts to appear w/in
> about 1s and has mostly completed within about 5s, users don't notice the
> lag, which is why even geosync satellite Internet with its several hundred
> ms latency can be acceptable for browsing).
> >
> > Video conferencing drives high-upload (5Mbps minimum) use cases.
> >
> > 4K streaming drives high-download (20Mbps per user or per stream with
> some safety and overhead) use cases.
> >
> > These are all valid and important overall in architecting needs for an
> ISP, but not all will necessarily be important to every user.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Colin
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of
> starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2024 1:37 PM
> > To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > Subject: Starlink Digest, Vol 36, Issue 20
> >
> >> ...
> > I think the 4K-latency discussion is a bit difficult, regardless of how
> great the codecs are.
> >
> > For one, 4K can be considered outdated for those who look forward to 8K
> and why not 16K; so we should forget 4K. 8K is delivered from space
> already by a japanese provider, but not on IP. So, if we discuss TV
> resolutions we should look at these (8K, 16K, and why not 3D 16K for ever
> more strength testing).
> >
> > Second, 4K etc. are for TV. In TV the latency is rarely if ever an
> issue. There are some rare cases where latency is very important in TV (I
> could think of betting in sports, time synch of clocks) but they dont look
> at such low latency as in our typical visioconference or remote surgery or
> group music playing use-cases on Internet starlink.
> >
> > So, I dont know how much 4K, 8K, 16K might be imposing any new latency
> requirement on starlink.
> >
> > Alex
> >
> > Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2024 18:21:48 +0100
> > From: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
> > To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > Subject: Re: [Starlink] It’s the Latency, FCC
> > Message-ID: <d04bf060-54e2-4828-854e-29c7f3e3de98@gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> >
> > I retract the message, sorry, it is true that some teleoperation and
> visioconf also use 4K. So the latency is important there too.
> >
> > A visioconf with 8K and 3D 16K might need latency reqs too.
> >
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