From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Authentication-Results: mail.toke.dk; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=sandelman.ca; dkim=pass header.d=sandelman.ca; arc=none (Message is not ARC signed); dmarc=none Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) by mail.toke.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 225A76F16A3 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2025 23:32:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA95C18019 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2025 17:32:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavis, port 10024) with LMTP id pZfvx0YWVTnS for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2025 17:32:30 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sandelman.ca; s=mail; t=1758835950; bh=WkPCMBil51kC8Q1RXS7F1OjT/Zt7C8T0ha0pVyGUVJE=; h=From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=Eb8Dg3oDmqSivxOKf9OtACOmHdfmc9/HGwezkDGfPJ25EHdTt3LWPP6l1DcLHRwzB cf21+p8RyF5x12vFz8KSRPEBkj4JZe+9NMGye+k97fhXSC/JpfybIO68yDuj8VxfgM ZvwKXsv01DyrT4GkY1gAKNTzCgh/gWuleX9Sh2OUe+7FndToPmtzzlAEoF5KBeH1nf BjAOoL2MmT9hkkoj9ANxTJqHw/Hfo3J4M4Xi5pi6EIA4DPcjyS/uMf4wMAPMYylrq5 /zrmQawC+cckOcxxp6T55Fh3WFtvvn0K6fbZRTMWrqdnNstZ+Ez6DWo/PjyIngU7fx PZjbw5OkBf9QA== Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2267318016 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2025 17:32:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 203D61C0 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2025 17:32:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net In-Reply-To: <175883435104.1555.15600582277556656536@gauss> References: <175883435104.1555.15600582277556656536@gauss> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.8+dev; GNU Emacs 28.2 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0;<'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2025 17:32:30 -0400 Message-ID: <30882.1758835950@obiwan.sandelman.ca> Message-ID-Hash: ZT43GSLNXEU73YHZZ6W2KZ37J3GU3CC4 X-Message-ID-Hash: ZT43GSLNXEU73YHZZ6W2KZ37J3GU3CC4 X-MailFrom: mcr@sandelman.ca X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; loop; banned-address; emergency; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list Subject: [Starlink] Re: Starlink looking less niche as its retail presence expands List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: {oops, signed message rejected, resending} As I understand it, the issue is that when a User Terminal changes satelli= tes, it can wind up going down to a "Landing Ground Station" (GS) different than it had before= . But, due to CGNAT at the GS itself, that packet can not be processed at th= e local CGNAT, so it has to travel to the GS that it was allocated for the CGNAT to work. (Same thing, alas, with IPv6, which does not have that st= ate!) While we hope that the terrestrial fiber network is never congested, it do= es create some annoying dependancies that are likely to show up when you leas= t want it. Like during natural disasters. Slide 7 thru 12 of Dr.Pan's presentation shows that terrestial network. Lots of opportunities for jitter, latency, L2 bufferbloat, ... MobileIP, had it been deployable, could have allowed the GS to send out messages to corespondant nodes telling them that they should switch their traffic to the new GS's Home Agent. IPv6 at least could be less stupid. Lots of reasons why MobileIP couldn't be done, that Marc alluded to. Messaging apps that can change their IP will not benefit. a) the local IP address, 192.168.1.101 hasn't changed. b) the outside CGNAT address will not have changed, and there is no way (AFAIK) for the app to tell the CGNAT at the GS that it would prefer to= exit there with a different IP. Maybe I mis-understand what people are talking about. Video conference calls often last more than the 15min view of a single satellite. The situation will be worse initially with OneWeb, as they hav= e fewer ground stations.