From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 64E013B29D for ; Wed, 5 Jun 2024 00:47:20 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1717562839; x=1718167639; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=coW5o6Vdx4WMj4s5vBPWFasKC88ofRalMb7o1QLl0nc=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:cc: content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:message-id: mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=C5CEd2Eiu7Rs0lbAMHw//1AXkq2GirbLXAGWceTO5ju/Dss96eaWxmOr4gsIzYF/ 6SP9+7Cd7U4xWas7qXei1wHR5vdHAAxLL4j2kEWKiOJlmHEIGxfrd/j6qDP21+GkZ lxZ9/+tpgho8eprZWEAviTyXtLxmnifIj/cnSxnUpBOasExIUi8D4myfRJ/O3GYvU jKGnHQFGsMnbcyLVxeIEQer+zAIuMFCrww4aJG/q+I9snhzIN/J3feue/31c2URRS m6s2V3MsdTyJWj/xQ/fKVn0H0WmNvKT0iqibYLtwayGBTraElB3A4AyQjpUGZ7Igj +bH9+7YMri2i/SQT2A== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([77.8.1.1]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1McY8T-1skBkx3aXN-00cvkl; Wed, 05 Jun 2024 06:47:19 +0200 Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2024 06:47:14 +0200 From: Sebastian Moeller To: Mike Puchol , Mike Puchol via Starlink , Michael Richardson via Starlink User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: <32AD770E-336E-4CF4-8B1B-8AE7353981CC@ieee.org> <9687.1717527495@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <1011428206.2534598.1717542074644@www.openxchange.eu> Message-ID: <350685C2-FF39-4EE4-93A5-1BE6EE9AC6C7@gmx.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=----LUVUS2JIPC06ZH4N7GFSJ58G912RR6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Cr0DXGiPCgkoocKLNJ2z7QwES+fFbGsTEuSrKbSSS9KYGQg0gnj uqe4mWuWlhHR4SV7BxEEz76fVlITpTBrmX1ejt3t2yjF1NEvVaPGoqUQMR9bQ8v9zWF9YPx 7trYGDgnPfTUsFZ/T8kWqKp3wl3CqDLMzg8Brl06rqSBL7XB6xIbAQn26HEDP9Ig0/UvU6r uNrKQrbVnmCwKKRqFI0uQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:7iYyAEBV34Q=;45IwabjHGIG41paR68YXmWb0+r5 3CDElC3l9dirU4or3YfttcaeYT3nf+sF0SiRiP0Edzj++yDBfSKy+SHVnLmZg+2qxZQ6oooEG qrN5AzspVBIKFK/bQpMr8KcrX5NZlCg/NM++7hz1SxBmRYExitZ+MiGSUCnVHPtF8QX4iR1tX LriOBHOm8CGsXxgbKnjIouKAW2kl5k1wwORijDTZny9TXNuLAOOPjuQE1rdT2vwwI4ms6Wgfb BRHPoRzAPKfKprbr9WhSjSJgqJNJ9RB5LRJQ2t7c5fimokrlBOW3q4FjeYebos9Ejhb6y165t sU6W77UHXvk1bbwdorzdpwjrsyKUDQV3PyV2qzrWEUpGDweSrDQ5mtk1yX+BvXmf3jye66vQN 2TU8QzVZweV6X76ym5+EcDBkma757yRItSdN+uf9aNKUFbi7Zb6KF4ezyV5RAMt0/cAbC6gcE rkfONmouvOPLIznsMSV5qeQlz1kFRArsKmNH5mn2aHG/W6V/ahm3774AHksUrfy85aI5Kuj/q nECfbIzSlYbCFrubbt8lryqwXLuG0LpztwPT5msAXRe+K79Hl/G8j7m+wrXpXVKBf7UiCk4pr TB9XNgkFO9b0aKVKD64m80UEq8CgqrwpPyomL4el5GSgEHC6GmQ0wPmFpfCP9MP36TyUK20gl rzj/8SUPpCurTEawC2BQ0lwYQTWwfuT8Bd9OEhIga8Q/bsfbveAvh+7x6Mv7yWOxNTdO8C64N M/SoW5T3biBdAZmA3nUwKhUBb3trR3fEDVwsWpLfRLynl0teyiabG46rH9ukIfz3TcVQpmOFC c14y+ExqQtkIE6eV431J4LkLtN4QLnQ5pY3mAybSfe3no= Subject: Re: [Starlink] SpaceX/Starlink says it's ready for a fall satellite-to-cell service with T-Mobile X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2024 04:47:20 -0000 ------LUVUS2JIPC06ZH4N7GFSJ58G912RR6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Curious, is that doppler correction applied individually per dishy, or per = cell? If the latter do cells extend ahead or behind the satellite's project= ion onto the globe, or is there one or more beams ahead an another one or m= ore behind? On 5 June 2024 06:16:02 CEST, Mike Puchol via Starlink wrote: >Yes, they correct doppler in a single stream - what I was alluding to is = the MIMO advantage of terrestrial networks which cannot be easily replicate= d from multiple satellites, as the UE cannot correct multiple doppler shift= s and timing advances unless it implements an NTN-specific approach=2E > >Best, > >Mike >On Jun 4, 2024 at 20:17 -0700, David Lang , wrote: >> Mike Puchol wrote: >> >> > Something else that's much harder to implement is MIMO, as you don't = get path >> > diversity from a satellite=2E AST claims they will do this by using m= ore than >> > one satellite, however they haven't answered basic questions such as = how will >> > the UE compensate the huge differences in doppler shift on top of the= multiple >> > paths=2E >> >> for the starlink version, the satellite adjusts it's transmit/receive >> frequencies to correct for the doppler shift so that the phones don't n= eed to=2E >> >> David Lang >> --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E ------LUVUS2JIPC06ZH4N7GFSJ58G912RR6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Curious, is that doppler correction applied indivi= dually per dishy, or per cell? If the latter do cells extend ahead or behin= d the satellite's projection onto the globe, or is there one or more beams = ahead an another one or more behind?


On 5 June 2024 06:16:02 CEST, Mike Puchol via Starlink = <starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet> wrote:
Yes, they correct dopp= ler in a single stream - what I was alluding to is the MIMO advantage of te= rrestrial networks which cannot be easily replicated from multiple satellit= es, as the UE cannot correct multiple doppler shifts and timing advances un= less it implements an NTN-specific approach=2E

Best,

Mike
On Jun 4, 2024 at 20:17 -0700, David Lan= g <david@lang=2Ehm>, wrote:
M= ike Puchol wrote:

Something else that's much harder to implement i= s MIMO, as you don't get path
diversity from a satellite=2E AST claims they will do this by using more t= han
one satellite, however they haven't answered basic questions such as how w= ill
the UE compensate the huge differences in doppler shift on top of the mult= iple
paths=2E

for the starlink version, the satellite adjusts it's transmit/receive
frequencies to correct for the doppler shift so that the phones don't need= to=2E

David Lang

-- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E<= /div>
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