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[72.253.194.45]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i18-20020a170902c95200b001ecbc8137bbsm12153236pla.131.2024.05.08.11.29.10 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 08 May 2024 11:29:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Eugene Y Chang Message-Id: <371C6B03-ED19-4D70-9516-8A7290309B89@ieee.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_EAC8386B-A7AD-439E-A24E-4935E5D93B6B"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.8\)) Date: Wed, 8 May 2024 08:29:08 -1000 In-Reply-To: Cc: Eugene Y Chang , Rich Brown , Sebastian Moeller , Colin_Higbie , Dave Taht via Starlink To: Dave Taht References: <438B1BC4-D465-497A-B6BA-700E1D411036@ieee.org> <79C02ABB-B2A6-4B4D-98F4-6540D3F96EBB@ieee.org> <7E918B58-382A-4793-A144-13A7075CA56C@connectivitycap.com> <13rq2389-9012-p95n-s494-q3pp070s497n@ynat.uz> <6qop2p3o-351p-788q-q1q2-86sosnq3rn21@ynat.uz> <3FF32F52-4A93-496B-85FF-00020FA4A48B@gmx.de> <08F6942E-CC08-4956-B92E-CBEC091D86E4@ieee.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.8) Subject: Re: [Starlink] The "reasons" that bufferbloat isn't a problem X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 18:29:13 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_EAC8386B-A7AD-439E-A24E-4935E5D93B6B Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5B9563D4-76B1-416C-A9DF-3687DE39F939" --Apple-Mail=_5B9563D4-76B1-416C-A9DF-3687DE39F939 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I am appreciating this email thread. It is really hard to =E2=80=9Csell=E2=80=9D the features ala carte. They = need to be bundled into reference packages. This you know. > The wisps totally got it with fq codel and cake arriving native for = mikeotiks entire product line and much of ubnts gear prior to that. Now we need a demo (or packaged test suite) that shows a full package = (aka Mikrotik) against a less capable implementation with missing = features. Users need to visualize the difference to develop envy for the = whole package. Hopefully, the demo is not lame. Dave, did you indirectly point out that an eSports demo with Miriotik = AP/routers could deliver visible improvement? What do I need to verify = before trying it out? Any advice on what expectations to set? Gene ---------------------------------------------- Eugene Chang > On May 7, 2024, at 3:48 PM, Dave Taht wrote: >=20 > This was a wonderful post, rich! >=20 > I note that preseem, paraqum, bequant and libreqos (a bufferbloat.net = backed project) are in the fq codel or cake = Middlebox for isps *Qoe) market and all of us have made a substantial = dent in the problem for oh, call it 1000 isps worldwide total between = us. Comcast also has done a pretty good job but it seems yhe rest of the = cable industry is asleep at the switch. >=20 > The wisps totally got it with fq codel and cake arriving native for = mikeotiks entire product line and much of ubnts gear prior to that. >=20 >=20 > Qoe is still a pretty hard sell. Libreqos has a ton of free users and = we think over a million devices managed by it but not enough paid users = to justify even 1/10th the investment we have made so far into it = (something that I hope turns around with the upcoming v1.5 lts release = and some outputs from the nlnet and Comcast funded cakemaint and nqb = projects) >=20 > Thing is, at higher and fiber rates all the bloat moves to the wifi, = and a ton of that, like eero especially was long ago fq codeled and so I = think several major players have also (except for those stuck with = broadcom). >=20 > That said there are a lot of defective wifi aps left to replace. = Nearly every coffee shop I have been in with the exception of Starbucks = has really lousy wifi. >=20 > I am so thrilled to see what starlink has accomplished so far with = their rollout of bufferbloat.net stuff and = look forward to more. They are still missing a few tricks... but are = aware of what tricks they are missing... >=20 > Lack of knowledge of which regrettably remains the case for 97% of the = market and 99.99$ user base. Still ar apps will drive this rventually... = I think starlink is nicely positioned now to meet their demanding growth = goals and humanity's future in space assured, so there's that. ( i still = would rather like elone to send over a nice pair of tesla motors and = battery pack for my sailboat) >=20 > I did have a nice jam with ajit Pai last week who is now well on his = way towards getting it. (See my twitter for the pics) >=20 > On Mon, May 6, 2024, 4:25=E2=80=AFAM Rich Brown via Starlink = > = wrote: > Hi Gene, >=20 > I've been vacillating on whether to send this note, but have decided = to pull the trigger. I apologize in advance for the "Debbie Downer" = nature of this message. I also apologize for any errors, omissions, or = over-simplifications of the "birth of bufferbloat" story and its fixes. = Corrections welcome. >=20 > Rich > ------ >=20 > If we are going to take a shot at opening people's eyes to = bufferbloat, we should know some of the "objections" we'll run up = against. Even though there's terrific technical data to back it up, = people seem especially resistant to thinking that bufferbloat might = affect their network, even when they're seeing problems that sound = exactly like bufferbloat symptoms. But first, some history: >=20 > The very idea of bufferbloat is simply unbelievable. Jim Gettys in = 2011 [1] couldn't believe it, and he's a smart networking guy,. At the = time, it seemed incredible (that is "not credible" =3D=3D impossible) = that something could induce 1.2 seconds of latency into his home network = connection. He called in favors from technical contacts at his ISP and = at Bell Labs who went over everything with a fine-toothed comb. It was = all exactly as spec'd. But he still had the latency. >=20 > This led Jim and Dave T=C3=A4ht to start the investigation into the = phenomenon known today as "bufferbloat" - the undesirable latency that = comes from a router or other network equipment buffering too much data. = Over several years, a group of smart people made huge improvements: = fq_codel was released 14 May 2012 [3]; it was incorporated into the = Linux kernel shortly afterward. CAKE came in 2015, and the fixes that = minimize bufferbloat in Wi-Fi arrived in 2018. In 2021 cake-autorate [4] = arrived to handle varying speed ISP links. All these techniques work = great: in 2014, my 7mbps DSL link was quite usable. And when the = pandemic hit, fq_codel on my OpenWrt router allowed me to use that same = 7mbps DSL line for two simultaneous zoom calls. >=20 > As one of the authors of [2], I am part of the team that has tried = over the years to explain bufferbloat and how to fix it. We've spoken = with vendors. We've spent untold hours responding to posts on assorted = boards and forums with the the bufferbloat story. >=20 > With these technical fixes in hand, we cockily set about to tell the = world about how to fix bufferbloat. Our efforts have been met with = skepticism at best, or stony silence. What are the objections? >=20 > - This is just the ordinary behavior: I would expect things to be = slower when there's more traffic (Willfully ignoring orders of magnitude = increase in delay.) > - Besides, I'm the only one using the internet. (Except when my phone = uploads photos. Or my computer kicks off some automated process. Or I = browse the web. Or ...) > - It only happens some of the time. (Exactly. That's probably when = something's uploading photos, or your computer is doing stuff in the = background.) > - Those bufferbloat tests you hear about are bogus. They artificially = add load, which isn't a realistic test. (...and if you actually are = downloading a file?) > - Bufferbloat only happens when the network is 100% loaded. (True. But = when you open a web page, your browser briefly uses 100% of the link. Is = this enough to cause momentary lag?) > - It's OK. I just tell my kids/spouse not to use the internet when I'm = gaming. (Huh?) > - I have gigabit service from my ISP. (That helps, but if you're = complaining about "slowness" you still need to rule out bufferbloat in = your router.) > - I can't believe that router manufacturers would ever allow such a = thing to happen in their gear. (See the Jim Gettys story above.) > - I mean... wouldn't router vendors want to provide the best for their = customers? (No - implementing this (new-ish) code requires engineering = effort. They're selling plenty of routers with decade-old software. The = Boss says, "would we sell more if they made these changes? Probably = not.") > - Why would my ISP provision/sell me a router that gave crappy = service? They're a big company, they must know about this stuff. (Maybe. = We have reached out to all the vendors. But remember they profit if you = decide your network is too slow and you upgrade to a faster = device/plan.) > - But couldn't I just tweak the QoS on my router? (Maybe. But see [5]) > - Besides, I just spent $300 on a "gaming router". Obviously, I bought = the most expensive/best possible solution on the market (But I still = have lag...) > - You're telling me that a bunch of pointy-headed academics are = smarter than commercial router developers - who sold me that $300 = router? (I can't believe it.) > - And then you say that I should throw away that gaming router and = install some "open source firmware"? (What the heck is that? And why = should I believe you?) > - What if it doesn't solve the problem? Who will give me support? And = how will I get back to a vendor-supported system? (Valid point - the = first valid point) > - Aren't there any commercial solutions I can just buy? (Not at the = moment. IQrouter was a shining light here - available from Amazon, = simple setup, worked a treat - but they have gone out of business. And = of course, for the skeptic, this is proof that the "fq_codel-stuff" = isn't really a solution - it seems just like snake oil.) >=20 > So... All these hurdles make it hard to convince people that = bufferbloat could be the problem, or that they can fix for themselves. >=20 > A couple of us have reached out to Consumer Reports, wondering if they = would like a story about how vendors would prefer to sell you a new, = faster router (or new faster ISP plan) than fix your bufferbloat. This = kind of story seemed to be straight up their alley, but we never heard = back after an initial contact. Maybe they deserve another call... >=20 > The recent latency results from Starlink give me a modicum of hope. = They're a major player. They (and their customers) can point to an order = of magnitude reduction in latency over other solutions. It still = requires enough "regular customers" to tell their current ISP that they = are switching to Starlink (and spend $600 to purchase a Dishy plus = $100/month) to provide a market incentive. >=20 > Despite all this doom and gloom, I remain hopeful that things will get = better. We know the technology exists for people to take control of = their network and solve the problem for themselves. We can continue to = respond on forums where people express their dismay at the crummy = performance and suggest a solution. We can hope that a major vendor will = twig to this effect and bring out a mass-market solution. >=20 > I think your suggestion of speaking to eSports people is intriguing. = They're highly motivated to make their personal networks better. And = actually solving the problem would have a network effect of bringing in = others with the same problem. >=20 > Good luck, and thanks for thinking about this. >=20 > Rich Brown >=20 > [1] = https://courses.cs.washington.edu/courses/cse550/21au/papers/bufferbloat.p= df = [2] = https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/What_can_I_do_about_Buffer= bloat/ = > [3] = https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/cerowrt-devel/2012-May/000233.html= = > [4] https://github.com/lynxthecat/cake-autorate = > [5] = https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/More_about_Bufferbloat/#wh= at-s-wrong-with-simply-configuring-qos = >=20 >> On May 1, 2024, at 6:19 PM, Eugene Y Chang via Starlink = > = wrote: >>=20 >> Of course. For the gamers, the focus is managing latency. They have = control of everything else. >>=20 >> With our high latency and wide range of values, the eSports teams = train on campus. It will be interesting to see how much improvements = there can be for teams to be able to training from their homes. >>=20 >> Gene >> ---------------------------------------------- >> Eugene Chang >> IEEE Life Senior Member >> IEEE Communications Society & Signal Processing Society, >> Hawaii Chapter Chair >> IEEE Life Member Affinity Group Hawaii Chair >> IEEE Entrepreneurship, Mentor >> eugene.chang@ieee.org >> m 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu) >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink = --Apple-Mail=_5B9563D4-76B1-416C-A9DF-3687DE39F939 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I = am appreciating this email thread.

It is really hard to =E2=80=9Csell=E2=80=9D= the features ala carte. They need to be bundled into reference = packages. This you know.

The wisps totally got it with fq = codel and cake arriving native for mikeotiks entire product line and = much of ubnts gear prior to that.

Now we need a demo (or = packaged test suite) that shows a full package (aka Mikrotik) against a = less capable implementation with missing features. Users need to = visualize the difference to develop envy for the whole package. = Hopefully, the demo is not lame.

Dave, did you indirectly point out that = an eSports demo with Miriotik AP/routers could deliver visible = improvement? What do I need to verify before trying it out? Any advice = on what expectations to set?

Gene
----------------------------------------------
Eugene Chang




On May 7, 2024, at 3:48 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>= wrote:

This was a wonderful post, = rich!

I note that preseem, paraqum,  bequant and libreqos (a = bufferbloat.net = backed project) are in the fq codel or cake Middlebox for isps *Qoe) = market and all of us have made a substantial dent in the problem for oh, = call it 1000 isps worldwide total between us. Comcast also has done a = pretty good job but it seems yhe rest of the cable industry is asleep at = the switch.

The wisps totally got it with fq codel and cake = arriving native for mikeotiks entire product line and much of ubnts gear = prior to that.


Qoe is still a pretty hard sell. Libreqos has a ton of free = users and we think over a million devices managed by it but not enough = paid users to justify even 1/10th the investment we have made so far = into it (something that I hope turns around with the upcoming v1.5 lts = release and some outputs from the nlnet and Comcast funded cakemaint and = nqb projects)

Thing is, at higher and fiber rates all the = bloat moves to the wifi, and a ton of that, like eero especially was = long ago fq codeled and so I think several major players have also = (except for those stuck with broadcom). 

That said = there are a lot of defective wifi aps left to replace. Nearly every = coffee shop I have been in with the exception of Starbucks has really = lousy wifi.

I am so thrilled to see what starlink has = accomplished so far with their rollout of bufferbloat.net stuff = and look forward to more. They are still missing a few tricks... but are = aware of what tricks they are missing...

Lack of = knowledge of which regrettably remains the case for 97% of the market = and 99.99$ user base. Still ar apps will drive this rventually... I = think starlink is nicely positioned now to meet their demanding growth = goals and humanity's future in space assured, so there's that. ( i still = would rather like elone to send over a nice pair of tesla motors and = battery pack for my sailboat)

I did have a nice jam with = ajit Pai last week who is now well on his way towards getting it. (See = my twitter for the pics)

On Mon, May = 6, 2024, 4:25=E2=80=AFAM Rich Brown via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
Hi Gene,

I've been vacillating = on whether to send this note, but have decided to pull the trigger. I = apologize in advance for the "Debbie Downer" nature of this message. I = also apologize for any errors, omissions, or over-simplifications of the = "birth of bufferbloat" story and its fixes. Corrections = welcome.

Rich
------

If we are going to take a shot at = opening people's eyes to bufferbloat, we should know some of the = "objections" we'll run up against. Even though there's terrific = technical data to back it up, people seem especially resistant to = thinking that bufferbloat might affect their network, even when they're = seeing problems that sound exactly like bufferbloat symptoms. But first, = some history:

The very idea of = bufferbloat is simply unbelievable. Jim Gettys in 2011 [1] couldn't = believe it, and he's a smart networking guy,. At the time, it seemed = incredible (that is "not credible" =3D=3D impossible) that = something could induce 1.2 seconds of latency into his home network = connection. He called in favors from technical contacts at his ISP = and at Bell Labs who went over everything with a fine-toothed comb. = It was all exactly as spec'd. But he still had the latency. 

This led Jim and Dave T=C3=A4ht to start the = investigation into the phenomenon known today as "bufferbloat" - the = undesirable latency that comes from a router or other = network equipment buffering too much data. Over several years, a = group of smart people made huge improvements: fq_codel was released 14 = May 2012 [3]; it was incorporated into the Linux kernel shortly = afterward. CAKE came in 2015, and the fixes that minimize bufferbloat in = Wi-Fi arrived in 2018. In 2021 cake-autorate [4] arrived to = handle varying speed ISP links. All these techniques work great: in = 2014, my 7mbps DSL link was quite usable. And when the pandemic hit, = fq_codel on my OpenWrt router allowed me to use that same 7mbps DSL = line for two simultaneous zoom calls. 

As one of the authors of [2], I am part = of the team that has tried over the years to explain bufferbloat and how = to fix it. We've spoken with vendors. We've spent untold hours = responding to posts on assorted boards and forums with the the = bufferbloat story. 

With these technical fixes in hand, we cockily set about to = tell the world about how to fix bufferbloat. Our efforts have been met = with skepticism at best, or stony silence. What are the = objections? 

- This is just the ordinary behavior: I would expect things = to be slower when there's more traffic (Willfully ignoring orders of = magnitude increase in delay.)
- Besides, I'm the = only one using the internet. (Except when my phone uploads photos. Or my = computer kicks off some automated process. Or I browse the web. Or = ...)
- It only happens some of the time. (Exactly. = That's probably when something's uploading photos, or your computer is = doing stuff in the background.)
- Those bufferbloat = tests you hear about are bogus. They artificially add load, which isn't = a realistic test. (...and if you actually are downloading a = file?)
- Bufferbloat only happens when the network = is 100% loaded. (True. But when you open a web page, your browser = briefly uses 100% of the link. Is this enough to cause momentary = lag?)
- It's OK. I just tell my kids/spouse not to = use the internet when I'm gaming. (Huh?)
- I have = gigabit service from my ISP. (That helps, but if you're complaining = about "slowness" you still need to rule out bufferbloat in your = router.)
- I can't believe that router = manufacturers would ever allow such a thing to happen in their gear. = (See the Jim Gettys story above.)
- I mean... = wouldn't router vendors want to provide the best for their customers? = (No - implementing this (new-ish) code requires engineering effort. = They're selling plenty of routers with decade-old software. The Boss = says, "would we sell more if they made these changes? Probably = not.")
- Why would my ISP provision/sell me a = router that gave crappy service? They're a big company, they must know = about this stuff. (Maybe. We have reached out to all the vendors. But = remember they profit if you decide your network is too slow and you = upgrade to a faster device/plan.)
- But couldn't I = just tweak the QoS on my router? (Maybe. But see [5])
- Besides, I just spent $300 on a "gaming router". Obviously, = I bought the most expensive/best possible solution on the market (But I = still have lag...)
- You're telling me that a bunch = of pointy-headed academics are smarter than commercial router developers = - who sold me that $300 router? (I can't believe it.)
- And then you say that I should throw away that gaming = router and install some "open source firmware"? (What the heck is that? = And why should I believe you?) 
- What if it = doesn't solve the problem? Who will give me support? And how will I get = back to a vendor-supported system? (Valid point - the first valid = point)
- Aren't there any commercial solutions I = can just buy? (Not at the moment. IQrouter was a shining light here - = available from Amazon, simple setup, worked a treat - but they have gone = out of business. And of course, for the skeptic, this is proof that the = "fq_codel-stuff" isn't really a solution - it seems just like snake = oil.)

So... = All these hurdles make it hard to convince people that bufferbloat could = be the problem, or that they can fix for themselves.

A couple of us have = reached out to Consumer Reports, wondering if they would like a story = about how vendors would prefer to sell you a new, faster router (or new = faster ISP plan) than fix your bufferbloat. This kind of story seemed to = be straight up their alley, but we never heard back after an initial = contact. Maybe they deserve another call...

The recent latency results from = Starlink give me a modicum of hope. They're a major player. They (and = their customers) can point to an order of magnitude reduction in latency = over other solutions. It still requires enough "regular customers" to = tell their current ISP that they are switching to Starlink (and spend = $600 to purchase a Dishy plus $100/month) to provide a market = incentive.

Despite all this doom and gloom, I remain hopeful that things = will get better. We know the technology exists for people to take = control of their network and solve the problem for themselves. We can = continue to respond on forums where people express their dismay at the = crummy performance and suggest a solution. We can hope that a major = vendor will twig to this effect and bring out a mass-market = solution.

I = think your suggestion of speaking to eSports people is intriguing. = They're highly motivated to make their personal networks better. And = actually solving the problem would have a network effect of bringing in = others with the same problem. 

Good luck, and thanks for thinking = about this.

Rich= Brown

[1] https://courses.cs.washington.edu/courses/cse550/21au/papers/bu= fferbloat.pdf
[2] https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/What_can_I_do_a= bout_Bufferbloat/
[3] https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/cerowrt-devel/2012-May/= 000233.html
[4] https://github.com/lynxthecat/cake-autorate
[5] https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/More_about_Buff= erbloat/#what-s-wrong-with-simply-configuring-qos

On May 1, 2024, at 6:19 PM, Eugene Y Chang via Starlink = <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> = wrote:

Of = course. For the gamers, the focus is managing latency. They have control = of everything else.

With our high latency and wide range of values, the eSports = teams train on campus. It will be interesting to see how much = improvements there can be for teams to be able to training from their = homes.
Gene
----------------------------------------------
Eugene Chang
IEEE Life Senior = Member
IEEE Communications Society & Signal = Processing Society,    
    Hawaii = Chapter Chair
IEEE Life Member Affinity Group = Hawaii Chair
IEEE Entrepreneurship, Mentor
eugene.chang@ieee.org
m = 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)

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Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

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