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[72.253.196.65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w24-20020a17090a461800b001fe39bda429sm6894267pjg.38.2022.09.26.13.19.21 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 26 Sep 2022 13:19:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Eugene Y Chang Message-Id: <39E525B8-D356-4F76-82FF-F1F0B3183908@ieee.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_CFD2523D-E580-400C-8935-5515340E29D7"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.1\)) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2022 10:19:20 -1000 In-Reply-To: Cc: Eugene Chang , Dave Taht , Dave Taht via Starlink To: Bruce Perens References: <060F7695-D48E-413C-9501-54ECC651ABEB@cable.comcast.com> <07C46DD5-7359-410E-8820-82B319944618@alum.mit.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.1) Subject: Re: [Starlink] It's still the starlink latency... X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2022 20:19:24 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_CFD2523D-E580-400C-8935-5515340E29D7 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3C20B66B-D4FB-4326-B337-957F44B009C7" --Apple-Mail=_3C20B66B-D4FB-4326-B337-957F44B009C7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 You already know this. Bufferbloat is a symptom and not the cause. = Bufferbloat grows when there are (1) periods of low or no bandwidth or = (2) periods of insufficient bandwidth (aka network congestion). If I understand this correctly, just a software update cannot make = bufferbloat go away. It might improve the speed of recovery (e.g. throw = away all time sensitive UDP messages). Gene ---------------------------------------------- Eugene Chang IEEE Senior Life Member eugene.chang@ieee.org 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu) > On Sep 26, 2022, at 10:04 AM, Bruce Perens wrote: >=20 > Please help to explain. Here's a draft to start with: >=20 > Starlink Performance Not Sufficient for Military Applications, Say = Scientists >=20 > The problem is not availability: Starlink works where nothing but = another satellite network would. It's not bandwidth, although others = have questions about sustaining bandwidth as the customer base grows. = It's latency and jitter. As load increases, latency, the time it takes = for a packet to get through, increases more than it should. The = scientists who have fought bufferbloat, a major cause of latency on the = internet, know why. SpaceX needs to upgrade their system to use the = scientist's Open Source modifications to Linux to fight bufferbloat, and = thus reduce latency. This is mostly just using a newer version, but = there are some tunable parameters. Jitter is a change in the speed of = getting a packet through the network during a connection, which is = inevitable in satellite networks, but will be improved by making use of = the bufferbloat-fighting software, and probably with the addition of = more satellites. >=20 > We've done all of the work, SpaceX just needs to adopt it by upgrading = their software, said scientist Dave Taht. Jim Gettys, Taht's = collaborator and creator of the X Window System, chimed in: > Open Source luminary Bruce Perens said: sometimes Starlink's latency = and jitter make it inadequate to remote-control my ham radio station. = But the military is experimenting with remote-control of vehicles on the = battlefield and other applications that can be demonstrated, but won't = happen at scale without adoption of bufferbloat-fighting strategies. >=20 > On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 12:59 PM Eugene Chang = > wrote: > The key issue is most people don=E2=80=99t understand why latency = matters. They don=E2=80=99t see it or feel it=E2=80=99s impact. >=20 > First, we have to help people see the symptoms of latency and how it = impacts something they care about. > - gamers care but most people may think it is frivolous. > - musicians care but that is mostly for a hobby. > - business should care because of productivity but they don=E2=80=99t = know how to =E2=80=9Csee=E2=80=9D the impact. >=20 > Second, there needs to be a =E2=80=9COMG, I have been seeing the = action of latency all this time and never knew it! I was being = shafted.=E2=80=9D Once you have this awakening, you can get all the = press you want for free. >=20 > Most of the time when business apps are developed, =E2=80=9Cwe=E2=80=9D = hide the impact of poor performance (aka latency) or they hide from the = discussion because the developers don=E2=80=99t have a way to fix the = latency. Maybe businesses don=E2=80=99t care because any employees = affected are just considered poor performers. (In bad economic times, = the poor performers are just laid off.) For employees, if they happen to = be at a location with bad latency, they don=E2=80=99t know that latency = is hurting them. Unfair but most people don=E2=80=99t know the issue is = latency. >=20 > Talking and explaining why latency is bad is not as effective as = showing why latency is bad. Showing has to be with something that has a = person impact. >=20 > Gene > ----------------------------------- > Eugene Chang > eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu > +1-781-799-0233 (in Honolulu) >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Sep 26, 2022, at 6:32 AM, Bruce Perens via Starlink = > = wrote: >>=20 >> If you want to get attention, you can get it for free. I can place = articles with various press if there is something interesting to say. = Did this all through the evangelism of Open Source. All we need to do is = write, sign, and publish a statement. What they actually write is less = relevant if they publish a link to our statement. >>=20 >> Right now I am concerned that the Starlink latency and jitter is = going to be a problem even for remote controlling my ham station. The US = Military is interested in doing much more, which they have demonstrated, = but I don't see happening at scale without some technical work on the = network. Being able to say this isn't ready for the government's = application would be an attention-getter. >>=20 >> Thanks >>=20 >> Bruce >>=20 >> On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 9:21 AM Dave Taht via Starlink = > = wrote: >> These days, if you want attention, you gotta buy it. A 50k half page >> ad in the wapo or NYT riffing off of It's the latency, Stupid!", >> signed by the kinds of luminaries we got for the fcc wifi fight, = would >> go a long way towards shifting the tide. >>=20 >> On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 8:29 AM Dave Taht > wrote: >> > >> > On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 8:20 AM Livingood, Jason >> > > = wrote: >> > > >> > > The awareness & understanding of latency & impact on QoE is = nearly unknown among reporters. IMO maybe there should be some kind of = background briefings for reporters - maybe like a simple YouTube video = explainer that is short & high level & visual? Otherwise reporters will = just continue to focus on what they know... >> > >> > That's a great idea. I have visions of crashing the washington >> > correspondents dinner, but perhaps >> > there is some set of gatherings journalists regularly attend? >> > >> > > >> > > =EF=BB=BFOn 9/21/22, 14:35, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht via = Starlink" on behalf of = starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > = wrote: >> > > >> > > I still find it remarkable that reporters are still missing = the >> > > meaning of the huge latencies for starlink, under load. >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > FQ World Domination pending: = https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/ = >> > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> FQ World Domination pending: = https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/ = >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net = >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink = >>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> Bruce Perens K6BP >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net = >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink = >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > Bruce Perens K6BP --Apple-Mail=_3C20B66B-D4FB-4326-B337-957F44B009C7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 You = already know this. Bufferbloat is a symptom and not the cause. = Bufferbloat grows when there are (1) periods of low or no bandwidth or = (2) periods of insufficient bandwidth (aka network congestion).

If I understand this = correctly, just a software update cannot make bufferbloat go away. It = might improve the speed of recovery (e.g. throw away all time sensitive = UDP messages).

Gene
----------------------------------------------
Eugene Chang
IEEE Senior Life = Member
eugene.chang@ieee.org
781-799-0233 (in = Honolulu)



On Sep 26, 2022, at 10:04 AM, Bruce Perens <bruce@perens.com> = wrote:

Please help to explain. Here's a = draft to start with:

Starlink Performance Not Sufficient for = Military Applications, Say Scientists

The problem is not availability: = Starlink works where nothing but another satellite network would. It's = not bandwidth, although others have questions about sustaining bandwidth = as the customer base grows. It's latency and jitter. As load increases, latency, the time it takes for = a packet to get through, increases more than it should. The scientists = who have fought bufferbloat, a major cause = of latency on the internet, know why. SpaceX needs to upgrade their = system to use the scientist's Open Source modifications to Linux to = fight bufferbloat, and thus reduce latency. This is mostly just using a = newer version, but there are some tunable parameters. Jitter is a change in the speed of getting a packet through the = network during a connection, which is inevitable in satellite networks, = but will be improved by making use of the bufferbloat-fighting software, = and probably with the addition of more satellites.

We've done = all of the work, SpaceX just needs to adopt it by upgrading their = software, said scientist Dave Taht. Jim Gettys, Taht's collaborator = and creator of the X Window System, chimed in: <fill in here = please>
Open Source luminary Bruce Perens said: = sometimes Starlink's latency and jitter make it inadequate = to remote-control my ham radio station. But the military is = experimenting with remote-control of vehicles on the battlefield and = other applications that can be demonstrated, but won't happen at scale without adoption of bufferbloat-fighting = strategies.

On Mon, Sep = 26, 2022 at 12:59 PM Eugene Chang <eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
The key issue is most people don=E2=80=99t = understand why latency matters. They don=E2=80=99t see it or feel it=E2=80= =99s impact. 

First, we have to help people see the symptoms of latency and = how it impacts something they care about.
- gamers = care but most people may think it is frivolous.
- = musicians care but that is mostly for a hobby.
- = business should care because of productivity but they don=E2=80=99t know = how to =E2=80=9Csee=E2=80=9D the impact.

Second, there needs to be a =E2=80=9COMG,= I have been seeing the action of latency all this time and never knew = it! I was being shafted.=E2=80=9D Once you have this awakening, you can = get all the press you want for free.

Most of the time when business apps are = developed, =E2=80=9Cwe=E2=80=9D hide the impact of poor performance (aka = latency) or they hide from the discussion because the developers don=E2=80= =99t have a way to fix the latency. Maybe businesses don=E2=80=99t care = because any employees affected are just considered poor performers. (In = bad economic times, the poor performers are just laid off.) For = employees, if they happen to be at a location with bad latency, they = don=E2=80=99t know that latency is hurting them. Unfair but most people = don=E2=80=99t know the issue is latency. 

Talking and explaining why latency is = bad is not as effective as showing why latency is bad. Showing has to be = with something that has a person impact. 

Gene
-----------------------------------
Eugene Chang
eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu
+1-781-799-0233 (in = Honolulu)





On Sep 26, 2022, at 6:32 AM, Bruce Perens via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

If you want to = get attention, you can get it for free. I can place articles with = various press if there is something interesting to say. Did this all = through the evangelism of Open Source. All we need to do is write, sign, = and publish a statement. What they actually write is less relevant if = they publish a link to our statement.

Right now I am concerned that the = Starlink latency and jitter is going to be a problem even for remote = controlling my ham station. The US Military is interested in doing much = more, which they have demonstrated, but I don't see happening at scale without some technical work on the network. = Being able to say this isn't ready for the government's application = would be an attention-getter.

    Thanks

    = Bruce

On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 9:21 AM Dave = Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> = wrote:
These days, if you want attention, = you gotta buy it. A 50k half page
ad in the wapo or NYT riffing off of It's the latency, Stupid!",
signed by the kinds of luminaries we got for the fcc wifi fight, = would
go a long way towards shifting the tide.

On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 8:29 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 8:20 AM Livingood, Jason
> <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> wrote:
> >
> > The awareness & understanding of latency & impact on = QoE is nearly unknown among reporters. IMO maybe there should be some = kind of background briefings for reporters - maybe like a simple YouTube = video explainer that is short & high level & visual? Otherwise = reporters will just continue to focus on what they know...
>
> That's a great idea. I have visions of crashing the washington
> correspondents dinner, but perhaps
> there is some set of gatherings journalists regularly attend?
>
> >
> > =EF=BB=BFOn 9/21/22, 14:35, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht = via Starlink" <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net on behalf of starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >
> >     I still find it remarkable that reporters = are still missing the
> >     meaning of the huge latencies for starlink, = under load.
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC



--
FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink


--
Bruce = Perens K6BP
_______________________________________________
Starlink = mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink



--
Bruce Perens = K6BP

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