From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Authentication-Results: mail.toke.dk; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=; dkim=pass header.d=gmx.de header.i=moeller0@gmx.de; arc=none (Message is not ARC signed); dmarc=pass (Used From Domain Record) header.from=gmx.de policy.dmarc=quarantine Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) by mail.toke.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 439AE709B57 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2025 19:03:16 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1759165393; x=1759770193; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=y8Kkr3xxTB8i0MLMz+0/PJ5ZNNnhNWYO7U7MRvwMgP8=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id: References:To:cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from: message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=TgfhA1m+54Q/9xvF0XSP5ij3SUbFEzIg2ArX5ONW0o9a10x6O50EVn60v0/paRdb RYyzsSaFKR/lXZbU0zl+4sOwuT8ZxIpoFQsD3eryjv18ovcb0vW9PwKOOYlc0RM8e 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<11481.1759160635@obiwan.sandelman.ca> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.700.81) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:VT3hi4C7hkrSCySc0lUQGsS0trovKnSXr/ct1+xdE055iqnZcPc MJQ55nPOZCRpYKTVim+SGRitRROpXaYjeH+f3R1J3G6r04pf0QZKvwQgVgCJUhFj6rKea0g LXwEs1iDSMAednhWWr6YB4EQl771Ia574LMBlmH1wI1td4exTSOiDh8hbr7MXu2sCP+7nxN SupFz4q96xI7HqFkbHc0Q== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:KMa+V82GeMI=;IrN75RwfGJ6UkoPP5rOBc3vZmXU vMCOn56/D3G4rZ9MZd9EIoEOEhQroQSCtVGOheLdTcLLgZ8ovk5VPJwBL4yUWCqixgAyYHvzd EjfPOI6MHA1yD6qSB9y4++FZr2mfbfUgTYWCEED4ktEZwWMSk1fU5xsqpmDdNjTDAMTmdXFpT cgFmI+YA9CybNqojVPqjV4MK+pmAIvwLnCg6oMXr0oGgPCLlGla+/OC4vrvqrlR2px8wAU2le qQl2trkMWovWnLs9ikPTcexC7XKxhW94+hKHXjc0xvIyBGsyQH3d9VBVOJGHPRmVOXl/qDoXc WKRgf0Zid+F2AHouCJjWmHOjn1vp2mr6kH9JVALt1z5p+GZE8HGNjxsMuZo0YEl3I6O7OIkTo EuaNtThihXhlYVLB5cNq4GIuKITG6Qqd8Nth8FYOt04oVidm7E8TLh0Gw+wTfmyA7rY0otMTc QADtX0RakDCedRcvpi1MMtylBGf8/90pjPmUxFlLiA6guGwJQdXN7Kq1zGEENzhJpAnw/RO0b 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emergency; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list Subject: [Starlink] Re: Starlink Digest, Vol 53, Issue 14 List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Michael, > On 29. Sep 2025, at 17:43, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 >=20 > Sebastian Moeller wrote: >>> On 29. Sep 2025, at 00:26, Michael Richardson = wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Sebastian Moeller via Starlink = wrote: >>>> I fully agree and am quite puzzled to find zero references in the = SCONE >>>> draft for any experiments, let alone successful ones that = demonstrate >>>> the value SCONE might deliver. >>>> In my world one starts with such experiments and only writes an >>>> internet draft if these experiments demonstrated that an idea has = legs >>>> to stand on. >>>=20 >>> I regularly attend the SCONE virtual interim meetings. >>>=20 >>> I think that there is more occuring than is being published, >=20 >> That would be IMHO a failure in process... as far as I understood the >> IETF process aims at being transparent... >=20 > No, it's not. > If big-5G-vendor runs an experiment, summarizes it's experience, and = is > waiting for the scholarly paper to get reviewed... fine. Mmmh, in this case I would still like a verbal summary of that = experience in the ID even if was not published and might never be. >=20 >>> and I think that >>> the candidate TRONE and TRAIN and (was there a 3rd?) ideas did have = some >>> spike solutions created. >=20 >> As reader of the current ID I would very much like to know that that >> happened and what the outcome was, preferably I would learn all of = this >> as part of reading the ID. >=20 > Yes. Please ask for more on the list. >=20 >>> but, back to my original question: is there sufficient feedback in = the >>> *starlink* datapath from downlink'ing Satellite, through ISL, to = Ground >>> Station about the actual experienced congestion such that either: >>> a) packets could be dropped before wasting satellite capacity >>> b) SCONE (or another mark, including L4S, whether you believe it or = not), >>> could be applied? >>>=20 >>> How much does that available bandwidth vary during each of the = 15minute >>> attachments? >=20 >> I think we are talking about "every 15 seconds" not minutes... >=20 >> There have been some users of cake-autorate on starlink that reported >> at least some mild improvements, so I would say something might work, >> albeit not SCONE as that solves none of the problems users have on >> starlink... >=20 > 15s. Oh. I mis-understood the scale on the slides/presentation. > No way to do anything useful with feedback on a 15s timescale, I = think. Mmmh, it only takes a few RTTs in slow start to fill a link (we call ist = slow start, but doubling every RTT is exponential growth, that is pretty = aggressive), so 15 seconds is not so short...=20 Your typical on-line capacity test typically finished within 10-15 = seconds and such tests want several seconds of full saturating load. So = given starlink's often quite decent RTTs, I think 15 seconds should = suffice for congestion control/rate contol. However, if I recall = correctly there are other timescales with starlink that might be = relevant, one was around 4 seconds, I think. >=20 >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T = consulting ) > Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20