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charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ATIS-AV: ClamAV (iramx1.informatik.kit.edu) X-ATIS-Checksum: v3zoCAcc32ckk X-ATIS-Timestamp: iramx1.informatik.kit.edu esmtpsa 1717600910.904470076 Subject: Re: [Starlink] The "reasons" that bufferbloat isn't a problem X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2024 15:21:54 -0000 Hi, On 05.06.24 at 17:16 David Fernández via Starlink wrote: > " Our local regulator thinks that 150 ms access network OWD (so > 300msRTT) is acceptable" > > Your local regulator is following ITU-T advice in Recommendation G.114, > where it is said that up to 150 ms one-way delay is acceptable for > telephony. That is actually mouth-to-ear delay IIRC, so network delay is only a part of it. One has to consider play-buffering delay and codec delay as well. Interactive gaming usually requires smaller delays for a good QoE. Regards, Roland > Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2024 17:10:26 +0200 > From: Sebastian Moeller > > To: David Lang > > Cc: Alexandre Petrescu >, Dave Taht via >         Starlink > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] The "reasons" that bufferbloat isn't a problem > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=utf-8 > > Hi David, > > > > On 5. Jun 2024, at 16:16, David Lang via Starlink > > > wrote: > > > > Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > > > >> Le 05/06/2024 à 15:40, Gert Doering a écrit : > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> On Wed, Jun 05, 2024 at 03:28:45PM +0200, Alexandre Petrescu via > Starlink > >> wrote: > >>>> well, ok.  One day the satcom latency will be so low that we will > not have > >>>> enough requirements for its use :-) > >>> Your disbelief in physics keeps amazing me :-) > >> > >> sorry :-)  Rather than simply 'satcom' I should have said > satcom-haps-planes-drones.  I dont have a name for that. > > > > you would be better off with plans that don't require beating the > speed of light. Yes, quantum entanglement may be a path to beat the > speed of light, but you still need the electronics to handle it, and > have the speed of sound at temperatures and pressures that humans can > live at as a restriction. > > > > by comparison to your 1ms latency goals, extensive AT&T phone testing > decades ago showed that 100ms was the threshold where people could start > to detect a delay. > > Would you have any pointer for that study/those studies? Our local > regulator thinks that 150 ms access network OWD (so 300msRTT) is > acceptable and I am trying to find studies that can shed a light on what > acceptable delay is for different kind of interactive tasks. (Spoiler > alert, I am not convinced that 300ms RTT is a great idea, I forced my > self to remote desktop with artificial 300ms delay and it was not fun, > but not totaly unusable either, but then human can adapt and steer high > inertia vehicles like loaded container ships...) > > Sorry for the tangent... > > Regards >         Sebastian > > P.S.: Dave occasionally reminds us how 'slow' in comparison the speed of > sound is ~343 m/second (depending on conditions) or 343/1000 = 0.343 > m/millisecond that is even at a distance of 1 meter delay will be at a 3 > ms... and when talking to folks 10m away it is not the delay that is > annoying, but the fact that you have to raise your voice considerably... > > > > > David Lang_______________________________________________