[Starlink] community gateways

[Starlink] community gateways

[Dave Taht]

https://www.pcmag.com/news/starlinks-latest-offering-gigabit-gateways-starting-at-75000-per-month

-- 
40 years of net history, a couple songs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9RGX6QFm5E
Dave Täht CSO, LibreQos

Re: [Starlink] community gateways

[Alexandre Petrescu]

> “With Community Gateways, Starlink satellites are able to deliver 
> fiber-like speeds with local providers distributing connectivity to 
> homes, businesses, and governments using last-mile fiber, fixed 
> wireless and mobile wireless,” SpaceX said on its website 
> <https://www.starlinkinternet.info/community-gateway>.

err... 'fiber-like'?

Le 17/01/2024 à 11:39, Dave Taht via Starlink a écrit :
> https://www.pcmag.com/news/starlinks-latest-offering-gigabit-gateways-starting-at-75000-per-month
>

Re: [Starlink] community gateways

[Inemesit Affia]

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o3b advertises their service like this..see Jiospacefiber as another example.

Jan 17, 2024 3:03:11 PM Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>:

>> “With Community Gateways, Starlink satellites are able to deliver fiber-like speeds with local providers distributing connectivity to homes, businesses, and governments using last-mile fiber, fixed wireless and mobile wireless,” SpaceX said on its website <https://www.starlinkinternet.info/community-gateway>.
> 
> err... 'fiber-like'?
> 
> Le 17/01/2024 à 11:39, Dave Taht via Starlink a écrit :
>> https://www.pcmag.com/news/starlinks-latest-offering-gigabit-gateways-starting-at-75000-per-month
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

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Re: [Starlink] community gateways

[Alexandre Petrescu]

thanks, I did not know that JIOspace too (or maybe first) aims at that - 
it's a great initiative.

It seems to me this race creates the place for later services to be 
called _true_ fiber-like, when below-millisecond latencies will be 
afforded by multi-altitude constellations, including at below 10km.  It 
seems to me that lowering the altitudes is the only way towards 
fiber-like latencies.

Le 17/01/2024 à 16:13, Inemesit Affia a écrit :
> o3b advertises their service like this..see Jiospacefiber as another 
> example.
>
> Jan 17, 2024 3:03:11 PM Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink 
> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>:
>
>         “With Community Gateways, Starlink satellites are able to
>         deliver fiber-like speeds with local providers distributing
>         connectivity to homes, businesses, and governments using
>         last-mile fiber, fixed wireless and mobile wireless,” SpaceX
>         said on its website
>         <https://www.starlinkinternet.info/community-gateway>.
>
>
>     err... 'fiber-like'?
>
>     Le 17/01/2024 à 11:39, Dave Taht via Starlink a écrit :
>
>         https://www.pcmag.com/news/starlinks-latest-offering-gigabit-gateways-starting-at-75000-per-month
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Starlink mailing list
>     Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>     https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>

Re: [Starlink] community gateways

[Marc Blanchet]

> Le 17 janv. 2024 à 11:48, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> a écrit :
> 
> thanks, I did not know that JIOspace too (or maybe first) aims at that - it's a great initiative.
> 
> It seems to me this race creates the place for later services to be called _true_ fiber-like, when below-millisecond latencies will be afforded by multi-altitude constellations, including at below 10km.  It seems to me that lowering the altitudes is the only way towards fiber-like latencies.

If you go too low, then you are asking for trouble with aircrafts…

Marc.

> 
> Le 17/01/2024 à 16:13, Inemesit Affia a écrit :
>> o3b advertises their service like this..see Jiospacefiber as another example.
>> 
>> Jan 17, 2024 3:03:11 PM Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>:
>> 
>>        “With Community Gateways, Starlink satellites are able to
>>        deliver fiber-like speeds with local providers distributing
>>        connectivity to homes, businesses, and governments using
>>        last-mile fiber, fixed wireless and mobile wireless,” SpaceX
>>        said on its website
>>        <https://www.starlinkinternet.info/community-gateway>.
>> 
>> 
>>    err... 'fiber-like'?
>> 
>>    Le 17/01/2024 à 11:39, Dave Taht via Starlink a écrit :
>> 
>>        https://www.pcmag.com/news/starlinks-latest-offering-gigabit-gateways-starting-at-75000-per-month
>> 
>> 
>>    _______________________________________________
>>    Starlink mailing list
>>    Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>    https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

Re: [Starlink] community gateways

[Alexandre Petrescu]

Le 17/01/2024 à 17:53, Marc Blanchet a écrit :
>> Le 17 janv. 2024 à 11:48, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> a écrit :
>>
>> thanks, I did not know that JIOspace too (or maybe first) aims at that - it's a great initiative.
>>
>> It seems to me this race creates the place for later services to be called _true_ fiber-like, when below-millisecond latencies will be afforded by multi-altitude constellations, including at below 10km.  It seems to me that lowering the altitudes is the only way towards fiber-like latencies.
> If you go too low, then you are asking for trouble with aircrafts…

it is true, but trouble could be avoided.

Alex

>
> Marc.
>
>> Le 17/01/2024 à 16:13, Inemesit Affia a écrit :
>>> o3b advertises their service like this..see Jiospacefiber as another example.
>>>
>>> Jan 17, 2024 3:03:11 PM Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>:
>>>
>>>         “With Community Gateways, Starlink satellites are able to
>>>         deliver fiber-like speeds with local providers distributing
>>>         connectivity to homes, businesses, and governments using
>>>         last-mile fiber, fixed wireless and mobile wireless,” SpaceX
>>>         said on its website
>>>         <https://www.starlinkinternet.info/community-gateway>.
>>>
>>>
>>>     err... 'fiber-like'?
>>>
>>>     Le 17/01/2024 à 11:39, Dave Taht via Starlink a écrit :
>>>
>>>         https://www.pcmag.com/news/starlinks-latest-offering-gigabit-gateways-starting-at-75000-per-month
>>>
>>>
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>     Starlink mailing list
>>>     Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>     https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

Re: [Starlink] community gateways

[Inemesit Affia]

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I don't think the idea of advertising with the association of fiber is only about latency.

Think "symmetrical link" which isn't common even for Enterprise satcom.

Also the SLA. Wonder if we can test this link somehow. How performant is it vs the Ku Band service? Anyone has a connection to the customer?

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Re: [Starlink] community gateways

[Alexandre Petrescu]

Le 17/01/2024 à 21:57, Inemesit Affia via Starlink a écrit :
> I don't think the idea of advertising with the association of fiber is 
> only about latency.
>
> Think "symmetrical link" which isn't common even for Enterprise satcom.
IT is true.  That symmetrical aspect - upload speed similar to download 
bandwidth, compared to a higher ratio ul/dl - is a great benefit in 
fiber and ADSL for home users.  Maybe the latency ratio could also be 
considered.
>
>
> Also the SLA. Wonder if we can test this link somehow. How performant 
> is it vs the Ku Band service? Anyone has a connection to the customer?

I suppose it is not yet possible to compare the SLA of starlink 
Community gateways, since the starlink Community gateways seem not to be 
deployed already.  But I dont really know.

Alex

PS:

I am not sure what you mean by the SLA aspect (service-level 
agreement).  Maybe you mean a form of higher reliability and stability 
of the user link.

Ku band (12GHz-18GHz) is what typical starlink uses to end users.

Starlink Community gateways might also use Ku band, I think. However, 
the photos show these spheres of 'teleports' which probably use 
something higher than Ku.  I dont know what freqs these teleports use; 
and dont know either whether the Community gateways will use that Ku, or 
use the D-band (120-170GHz) recently reserved by 'ESSAFI II for starlink 
at ITU.

Then there is this Starlink Direct which promisses data (maybe higher 
bandwidths?) to unmodified smartphone users in year 2025, which might 
also be used for communities, albeit much smaller ('tethering' WiFi 
technology).  That is at 2.6 or 3.6 GHz (unmodified smartphones).

JIOSpace fiber seems to be at MEO altitudes and also for unmodified 
smartphones,, hence around 2.6 or 3.6GHz.

Do you think the 'SLA' of smartphones is high?


>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

Re: [Starlink] community gateways

[Inemesit Affia]

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This is Ka Band. Not Ku

SLA is basically a guarantee from the provider that a particular level of service will be met. Failure means penalties.

There's a single community gateway in Unalaska. The customer is Optimera.

Jan 18, 2024 10:17:34 AM Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>:

> 
> Le 17/01/2024 à 21:57, Inemesit Affia via Starlink a écrit :
>> I don't think the idea of advertising with the association of fiber is only about latency.
>> 
>> Think "symmetrical link" which isn't common even for Enterprise satcom.
> IT is true.  That symmetrical aspect - upload speed similar to download bandwidth, compared to a higher ratio ul/dl - is a great benefit in fiber and ADSL for home users.  Maybe the latency ratio could also be considered.
>> 
>> 
>> Also the SLA. Wonder if we can test this link somehow. How performant is it vs the Ku Band service? Anyone has a connection to the customer?
> 
> I suppose it is not yet possible to compare the SLA of starlink Community gateways, since the starlink Community gateways seem not to be deployed already.  But I dont really know.
> 
> Alex
> 
> PS:
> 
> I am not sure what you mean by the SLA aspect (service-level agreement).  Maybe you mean a form of higher reliability and stability of the user link.
> 
> Ku band (12GHz-18GHz) is what typical starlink uses to end users.
> 
> Starlink Community gateways might also use Ku band, I think. However, the photos show these spheres of 'teleports' which probably use something higher than Ku.  I dont know what freqs these teleports use; and dont know either whether the Community gateways will use that Ku, or use the D-band (120-170GHz) recently reserved by 'ESSAFI II for starlink at ITU.
> 
> Then there is this Starlink Direct which promisses data (maybe higher bandwidths?) to unmodified smartphone users in year 2025, which might also be used for communities, albeit much smaller ('tethering' WiFi technology).  That is at 2.6 or 3.6 GHz (unmodified smartphones).
> 
> JIOSpace fiber seems to be at MEO altitudes and also for unmodified smartphones,, hence around 2.6 or 3.6GHz.
> 
> Do you think the 'SLA' of smartphones is high?
> 
> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

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Re: [Starlink] community gateways

[David Lang]

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I'll say that what I've seen of SLAs makes them pretty close to worthless, they 
tend to be partial credit based on the outage, but they only cover the cost of 
the service itself, so any payment you get ends up being a drop in the bucket 
compared to what you lose by being down.

Not to mention that SLAs commonly exclude planned outages, and I've seen that 
abused extensively.

David Lang

On Thu, 18 Jan 2024, Inemesit Affia via Starlink wrote:

> This is Ka Band. Not Ku
>
> SLA is basically a guarantee from the provider that a particular level of service will be met. Failure means penalties.
>
> There's a single community gateway in Unalaska. The customer is Optimera.
>
> Jan 18, 2024 10:17:34 AM Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>:
>
>>
>> Le 17/01/2024 à 21:57, Inemesit Affia via Starlink a écrit :
>>> I don't think the idea of advertising with the association of fiber is only about latency.
>>>
>>> Think "symmetrical link" which isn't common even for Enterprise satcom.
>> IT is true.  That symmetrical aspect - upload speed similar to download bandwidth, compared to a higher ratio ul/dl - is a great benefit in fiber and ADSL for home users.  Maybe the latency ratio could also be considered.
>>>
>>>
>>> Also the SLA. Wonder if we can test this link somehow. How performant is it vs the Ku Band service? Anyone has a connection to the customer?
>>
>> I suppose it is not yet possible to compare the SLA of starlink Community gateways, since the starlink Community gateways seem not to be deployed already.  But I dont really know.
>>
>> Alex
>>
>> PS:
>>
>> I am not sure what you mean by the SLA aspect (service-level agreement).  Maybe you mean a form of higher reliability and stability of the user link.
>>
>> Ku band (12GHz-18GHz) is what typical starlink uses to end users.
>>
>> Starlink Community gateways might also use Ku band, I think. However, the photos show these spheres of 'teleports' which probably use something higher than Ku.  I dont know what freqs these teleports use; and dont know either whether the Community gateways will use that Ku, or use the D-band (120-170GHz) recently reserved by 'ESSAFI II for starlink at ITU.
>>
>> Then there is this Starlink Direct which promisses data (maybe higher bandwidths?) to unmodified smartphone users in year 2025, which might also be used for communities, albeit much smaller ('tethering' WiFi technology).  That is at 2.6 or 3.6 GHz (unmodified smartphones).
>>
>> JIOSpace fiber seems to be at MEO altitudes and also for unmodified smartphones,, hence around 2.6 or 3.6GHz.
>>
>> Do you think the 'SLA' of smartphones is high?
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Starlink mailing list
>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>