From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE1BB3CBC5 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 12:09:46 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1678896585; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=9JO6CtlnlHdVqq+o0RYoWaLn2rSCNoddhSwZYfCJJmY=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=H85gOYarcKB2iKc25Rvz91otDlA0wG0f6BL5w/S0Teswoup3FJwWxHU0UDf3N0ZKO Hri7N9W/V6KZdpa+aRevaKxASPRoLg4e0eStdj8nfLYunl2HQcd/dff+uUCMC7fsFy si2goiCgOkabVuAtX/Q6l0yOHWNtTzEdgwBk2FAHdpYFh2tHvSMgTkt/Yx497ufWFH iXMO3VbHVKDwBamtDBNe/bI8+MlF4B05iL3fW4kphwYnNaz0KxfxeSRk2BywZ8jkqc Pi5yhBZqwkIvWOr3uc8sUdvGJz95AA/uOi6srt8sBtasTgCDdwyU2+t1cZWXq1lnQQ tBLSBlzt6EsVw== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mdvqg-1qDBYk43de-00b6ep; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 17:09:45 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.2\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 17:09:44 +0100 Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <49102316-A4EC-4045-AD84-F58CFAA66A56@gmx.de> References: To: =?utf-8?Q?David_Fern=C3=A1ndez?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.2) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:qmCJFpEv95Fq3952VJVaLezQ8zsB1bIjAznWgA+3dvFjc/2SyEJ KC7eDhhi0netzPnj44BAacmOHXlT1237j2eQqUFDXDxA57+yM888A3B//wD/2PumKFKee3F JJKxv5dNmyJ4nynquPRRs9SSffELOxQqVbGxyuwZgWUwlSGWCnN1X6X/bLs92OUNHv11DFs gqYoWX9jbj+Jny+ipQXnA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:8VW8Fb8/wMU=;GPSAUPZxSRKK4rKCZZTLn77RGYC 4jzRyZxl5BL+vmNQzglLN1C2Pc34Gu1DYRLHOdhIhSe+nkzriHI0BUkm/eOIwGzjA3S5Lgyvm Q0svBfFhXgmtW+kyNmpxXmbaPKxtCCQH/IK18L08exESWmjIm/ZMLX+KKVVSICt9zGG7WIUdr 97L9la4t6qgoKM5Nocs8qrWJa064/PxWhqnfqUABRE6eJ9rgheTqgeAoSwpdbB/lH+Jg5Zvkm PqzI7qCJrCUFSic6ubS6V1fIPTwEjsF2NKumc7HDy1d+vePfwgxZhacwB/WAqcAt/DZSqiaQu GXPPbgH7/59cuXYtb3wmJ7PIldZ/mqwkiXJA/yww/cwSIXVinFk6+B8uMHJgeb5G0lryAcLSf uMU9WkSXthy4ZPPOwz6hlWhnYW1natHvHSD2aIVDPs/npQTWlaC4ZUP32PYQ4aa6HkFTdGn8h 7AGcnsV5sETJICB+M+2cq+bkD8mtkwHorzDEyE10Ag00kaJhuB0IObBgX8KxZeKyy/pnxUM1s srfclVAqlaXNieQAg+39k3GE2fc2x5c3u3egqQjSnBxBbft5XQ00eyZpIAd9nvgFyLRAIG7zR h7jfu+23FBQzmbCQ3TyPmes+Z3q6IUHdfNz6bAQmf49MAZX/C80mRpHEMGDWh4NKhdoJ2xKwG ZxLYZNQqRhhSM8NphxsdL7YJbFgXUmAMp5NX9FdJvltcui75hJtpOeDLJjlLsaHeoQjcgJIFo bh05jvgDAFe9MWnxRMBC6k7ACIDrStx+Fs4aVEn/abpvMtHe1LHiFrzm3QO0Mjb1v7ybqGzoN +8r3ucbE2/je8dTlhkMWOoM8pJ5HNtT67iJID/D6qsiccK/KUMn9+EVo9Wfy/Jv27f8MpBZsJ Ot9TpLxhQ7WcK6i6KptZgIhApyc5Tt0g5BCJQ+/jSvgvt793geIasQMc2dclY44H1f1Uy29Cu IfNzfMRpTCfwHLbIOKuG6SyIFl8= Subject: Re: [Starlink] On FiWi X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 16:09:47 -0000 Hi David, > On Mar 15, 2023, at 16:24, David Fern=C3=A1ndez via Starlink = wrote: >=20 > Hi David, >=20 > That's true: "any communications infrastructure that you mandate get > built into new buildings is going to be obsolete long before the > building is" There is some truth to that, I live in a house from 1918... >=20 > I am afraid this is also true: any communications infrastructure that > you do not mandate to get built into new buildings will never make it > into them afterwards. However the internal infrastructure was not last touched 1918... = so updates are possible ;) >=20 > So, we end up having things like IAB (Integrated Access and Backhaul) > defined to extend 5G coverage to downtown areas, where buildings > cannot be touched for historical/artistic reasons (extreme case). >=20 > Some time ago I tried to install coaxial in a flat that had only > copper wiring. It was impossible. Coaxial was too thick to pass > through the hole reserved for copper telephone cable (even removing > old cables), so I stayed with DSL. It is important that architects > consider the cabling needs of homes, not only for electricity. Especially as power lines are often placed inside walls in = "plaster" over here. However even for power it has long been clear that = the option with long term usability is to not put the actual cables in = plaster, but some flexible tubes, wide enough to allow a few parallel = cables. However for telecommunication wiring things are often a bit = special... like DSL-wires is best not placed cloae and parallel to power = lines, fiber and things like cat8 cables have different minimal turning = radii that power cables, ... all things that make it preferable to = design two distribution tube systems, one for power one for comms. > I have > used PLC (Power Line Comms) to extend Wi-Fi coverage at multiple floor > homes, but it is not perfect solution. +1; not ideal especially for VDSL (profile 35b is quite = sensitive to MIMO PLC adapter which do carnage to the upper frequency = sub carriers. > I would not recommend it. > Wireless mesh repeaters are worst, to my experience. Funny, over here we are still mainly VDSL based (FTTH is coming, = just not very fast ;) ) and here PLC is typically less desirable than = meshes of any kind. Regards Sebastian >=20 > Regards, >=20 > David >=20 >> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 11:37:21 -0700 (PDT) >> From: David Lang >> To: David Fern=C3=A1ndez >> Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> Subject: Re: [Starlink] On FiWi >> Message-ID: <8qq0r5n2-s836-1080-3362-2o8nr3qn1044@ynat.uz> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"; Format=3D"flowed" >>=20 >> any communications infrastructure that you mandate get built into new >> buildings >> is going to be obsolete long before the building is (especially radio >> equipment) >>=20 >> I am a big fan of using wire (or fiber) directly to equipment when = you can. >> wifi >> is sexy and 'easy' to setup, but there is only so much airtime = available, >> and >> your radio footprint where you produce intereference to other = equipment is >> much >> larger than the usable footprint (let alone what your requirements = are), so >> it >> is far more work to share reasonably. You also are sending a lot of = power >> places >> where it's not useful, so you are wasting energy compared to having >> somethign >> hard-wired. >>=20 >> There are times when you need the mobility that radio gives you, and = times >> where >> it's advantages outweigh the disadvantages, but please don't fall = into the >> trap >> of thinking that wires are obsolete and should be discouraged, it's = exactly >> the >> opposite, the more we can hard-wire, the better the mobile devices = that >> can't be >> hard wired can perform. >>=20 >> David Lang >>=20 >> On Tue, 14 Mar 2023, David Fern=C3=A1ndez via Starlink wrote: >>=20 >>> Hi Bob, >>>=20 >>> If you want that FiWi infrastructure on buildings, I am afraid that >>> you only get it (in the long term) with a law that makes it = mandatory >>> to make new buildings with that infrastructure for communications. >>>=20 >>> In Spain, it should be added to this: >>> = https://avancedigital.mineco.gob.es/Infraestructuras/Paginas/Index.aspx >>>=20 >>> Regards, >>>=20 >>> David >>>=20 >>>> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 21:27:23 -0700 >>>> From: rjmcmahon >>>> To: Sebastian Moeller >>>> Cc: dan , Jeremy Austin , = Rpm >>>> , libreqos >>>> , Dave Taht via Starlink >>>> , bloat = >>>> Subject: [Starlink] On FiWi >>>> Message-ID: >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8; format=3Dflowed >>>>=20 >>>> To change the topic - curious to thoughts on FiWi. >>>>=20 >>>> Imagine a world with no copper cable called FiWi (Fiber,VCSEL/CMOS >>>> Radios, Antennas) and which is point to point inside a building >>>> connected to virtualized APs fiber hops away. Each remote radio = head >>>> (RRH) would consume 5W or less and only when active. No need for = things >>>> like zigbee, or meshes, or threads as each radio has a fiber = connection >>>> via Corning's actifi or equivalent. Eliminate the AP/Client power >>>> imbalance. Plastics also can house smoke or other sensors. >>>>=20 >>>> Some reminders from Paul Baran in 1994 (and from David Reed) >>>>=20 >>>> o) Shorter range rf transceivers connected to fiber could produce a >>>> significant improvement - - tremendous improvement, really. >>>> o) a mixture of terrestrial links plus shorter range radio links = has the >>>> effect of increasing by orders and orders of magnitude the amount = of >>>> frequency spectrum that can be made available. >>>> o) By authorizing high power to support a few users to reach = slightly >>>> longer distances we deprive ourselves of the opportunity to serve = the >>>> many. >>>> o) Communications systems can be built with 10dB ratio >>>> o) Digital transmission when properly done allows a small signal to >>>> noise ratio to be used successfully to retrieve an error free = signal. >>>> o) And, never forget, any transmission capacity not used is wasted >>>> forever, like water over the dam. Not using such techniques = represent >>>> lost opportunity. >>>>=20 >>>> And on waveguides: >>>>=20 >>>> o) "Fiber transmission loss is ~0.5dB/km for single mode fiber, >>>> independent of modulation" >>>> o) =E2=80=9CCopper cables and PCB traces are very frequency = dependent. At >>>> 100Gb/s, the loss is in dB/inch." >>>> o) "Free space: the power density of the radio waves decreases with = the >>>> square of distance from the transmitting antenna due to spreading = of the >>>> electromagnetic energy in space according to the inverse square = law" >>>>=20 >>>> The sunk costs & long-lived parts of FiWi are the fiber and the CPE >>>> plastics & antennas, as CMOS radios+ & fiber/laser, e.g. VCSEL = could be >>>> pluggable, allowing for field upgrades. Just like swapping out SFP = in a >>>> data center. >>>>=20 >>>> This approach basically drives out WiFi latency by eliminating = shared >>>> queues and increases capacity by orders of magnitude by leveraging = 10dB >>>> in the spatial dimension, all of which is achieved by a physical = design. >>>> Just place enough RRHs as needed (similar to a pop up sprinkler in = an >>>> irrigation system.) >>>>=20 >>>> Start and build this for an MDU and the value of the building = improves. >>>> Sadly, there seems no way to capture that value other than over = long >>>> term use. It doesn't matter whether the leader of the HOA tries to >>>> capture the value or if a last mile provider tries. The value = remains >>>> sunk or hidden with nothing on the asset side of the balance sheet. >>>> We've got a CAPEX spend that has to be made up via "OPEX returns" = over >>>> years. >>>>=20 >>>> But the asset is there. >>>>=20 >>>> How do we do this? >>>>=20 >>>> Bob >>>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Starlink mailing list >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>=20 >> ------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink