From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 354EE3B2A4 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2022 11:06:18 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1644854775; bh=HJ+R4r41oA7s9wFmTiOtP+QAZDAmnX4Idmto2x9dJr8=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=WK2AFOfaOrm9PfkJSxMifOXlabzlThDpW04Nn2rk87zz8UowPueq7JIFOiRnAhf2M k5uwL09IqoeOyMK5IyRopGjyqONmtATnzQX86U2zsGxNpLad/AB/3egj+7HVKUCztk KEbDDPLv3u5PLqJxlwNvliHT9mycTw0tPiKM8DUk= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MEUz4-1nU27J2hdi-00G1Sf; Mon, 14 Feb 2022 17:06:15 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 17:06:14 +0100 Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn_Ivar_Teigen?= , starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4AFF4380-4AA5-47C5-8BF0-440101A3D788@gmx.de> References: To: =?utf-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:u8hICyrzhHjQDuXoCSPFEW7XV1K2eQKmjV02GuLh5ovOA4EMrUz Ffs7z6/vJFX5Dec8t8T1LiXhfAXiDb5/Rh1umd2nV6cQAykypTt5IaVud5B1vjh4TYKdXSh 7J5R0lnEi1kzgXUkEBDWNKEMGqkb+tfAN/2tdz8G6vbXevB2QFVC3FUrvTm1EX2u7U6HLI+ 78UTZTAA94ntdL47r7a0A== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:uA2kOijSjTY=:r2RIm8iJt9WO26aF3I6kyx gvRZheJnPcIqoaGn5feGUKPUSy6EBk0oslOrZxkGat4dz17yreUSLJNjbnVBnrB7PxVQBrl1R cbwYaCzHLC7J2K2c0k5ZdrxoL5bMUoJquu/q13tVwXSJCjeCVvg+JTVQXS/kMnXMJ9+wdHPV5 h010FawCpbFh35V8CWOoU4jIjj8zSx/hZgzWdRYvZsdTEQeUJOLEf7RLJl+ZeBZURxxBuuYhV nQzRuJCPLGGHjyJy1zxXHLcmbfKQgDlHcbkXB6gPnLEprSJCB1gLEe1tT22Hfa6mkH30WZ10W mtykONKPBfRXfa23woUzaAFpjWqjj9rJiP9cH0Rl+sN6v5vtFrAsqBfzRcch38TAnnCSgQKdV ajMKMGwPxekRHc6nsnUrkXHvJ7FCzNEmK/v+dfukKiJdMDiZCv3aaqKXSG5TnbVPH0jzhahJA 6CqL+7KLrN9NWio5pMDNIweqGaN/CczAY4/cWhTvJieXGC/z1c6QVQjq6eER2/DGd4J0OoMSW QIsHHN1HOaPJcpAOTnMP/UrIDSuq4R/QJ7NmefPfD8N9B8l4ljFdDA340OJv3f1xm/ZEzOzWo kL2otMuISkbQ6amB8Q3jqm0Gn8LnF77MTk8k74XXyxA8jwuCu/t0C66OlrrM6AP6O9Q4ig2W5 qqG65z/pFO5lxQLu1w0fQBmVWkXnqyWLIlNeneDMfrWl23cOidCsKYEObOjnvlykiI2/otUkl Cu4sR4T55bv0w+wVeO8AA1yovTCwyXT3eycBElE4cYV4PjhYtqb5bMBfF3h4nXfA9qeAvmIUu GhbcBBhEMf9rp1yJoZrIUJysHXkgKSSZldGfV38E8d8VudX2d1dDwXj2C1HXg4tGiIXjApBVc 5VfAsUJE+9IwkPv3011Z3VqwVC/SsNN7qrpnQJIc3hS69zo7nhU7AiLo0/ZhXe0I9ci4LjprP P3hwTE+wf++eMz7uraP6rydAaiu41ufHUovP8wxbjwqIxQsMM73TZiSdR4rHO0hsKQ5rJKnpi ULsd00ag8SwluCC+MAfpKT7EDrhy03dfbOPDEyL1hnrPdqX/R0foCsy7Lp7Flg111Gp4SD8Rp tKy4HPpaztXhOk= Subject: Re: [Starlink] Network quality for rocket scientists X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 16:06:18 -0000 Hi Dave, > On Feb 14, 2022, at 16:30, Dave Taht wrote: >=20 > It is wonderful to see another take on this subject from another = perspective! "See the problem? Buffers produce jitter!" I would rephrase that as "over-sized and under-managed" buffers increase = jitter unduly. Interestingly, bound jitter can be converted into static = latency by using, wait for it, (delay) buffers and a scheduler. >=20 > Only nit is at the conclusion... the benefits of applying fair queuing > to level out apparent jitter is well demonstrated at this point, for > most kinds of traffic. Wish you'd mentioned it. I rather wish low latency DOCSIS (LLD) aka L4S's primary = driver/use-case would not have been mentioned before it has been = properly tested and confirmed delivering on its promises. Because most = of what L4S offers/mandates for jitter reduction is "hopes and prayers", = aka end-points are supposed to behave well... in fairness LLD at least = has a poor man's FQ on board in the guise of "queue protection" (with by = default like 32 "buckets")... some of the cost of FQ with only few of = its benefits... Regards Sebastian >=20 >=20 > On Mon, Feb 14, 2022 at 7:07 AM Bj=C3=B8rn Ivar Teigen = wrote: >>=20 >> Hi everyone, >>=20 >> I was inspired by the latest Starship presentation to write a piece = on network quality in the language of rocket science. The blog can be = found here: = https://www.domos.no/news-updates/network-quality-for-rocket-scientists >>=20 >> Cheers, >> Bj=C3=B8rn Ivar Teigen >>=20 >> -- >> Bj=C3=B8rn Ivar Teigen >> Head of Research >> +47 47335952 | bjorn@domos.no | www.domos.no >> WiFi Slicing by Domos >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > I tried to build a better future, a few times: > https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org >=20 > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink