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[72.253.194.45]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k14-20020aa79d0e000000b006ecd942161fsm21525773pfp.190.2024.04.30.14.53.50 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 30 Apr 2024 14:53:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Eugene Y Chang Message-Id: <4B96B6C0-FB9A-40DD-9F04-F3F4FD18709E@ieee.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_41400EC8-9D9F-4A4C-A93F-61FE2C23141D"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.8\)) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 11:53:48 -1000 In-Reply-To: Cc: Eugene Y Chang , Dave Taht , Dave Taht via Starlink , Colin_Higbie , libreqos To: Frantisek Borsik References: <1A972680-ECA5-42CA-BE8B-6BBD46FF5E74@ieee.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.8) Subject: Re: [Starlink] =?utf-8?q?It=E2=80=99s_the_Latency=2C_FCC?= X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 21:53:53 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_41400EC8-9D9F-4A4C-A93F-61FE2C23141D Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2FD43D4E-D4DB-4961-986C-E379F818FCEE" --Apple-Mail=_2FD43D4E-D4DB-4961-986C-E379F818FCEE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Frank, Thank you. What you suggest makes sense if it was objective! In my neighborhood, the ISP=E2=80=99s organization will feel they have = nothing to learn from outsiders. (Worst, both major ISPs are just a = subsidiary of another organization. They just implement corporate = standards. The local managers are not motivated to deviate from their = corporate marching orders.) A public promotion (campaign) of modern best practices is needed. Then I = need to have this campaign spill over to the subscriber community. The = business community needs to be educated that their productivity will = improve. The social leaders need to learn that their community will get = better service. Then, and only then, can I see the ISP feeling the need = to improve. It helps if the improvement is just open-source software on = their hardware investment. Gene ---------------------------------------------- Eugene Chang IEEE Life Senior Member > On Apr 30, 2024, at 11:35 AM, Frantisek Borsik = wrote: >=20 > Eugene - the easiest thing in the case of your ISP would be tell him = about us: https://libreqos.io >=20 > He can take a look on it, join our support chat and get help if he = won't be able to get it up and running: = https://chat.libreqos.io/join/fvu3cerayyaumo377xwvpev6/ = >=20 > But most of the ISPs don't need to talk with us at all, it's easy to = deploy. >=20 >=20 > All the best, >=20 > Frank >=20 > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik >=20 >=20 >=20 > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik = > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 >=20 > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 >=20 > Skype: casioa5302ca >=20 > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com >=20 > On Tue, Apr 30, 2024 at 11:22=E2=80=AFPM Eugene Y Chang via Starlink = > = wrote: > OK. I need help teaching my ISPs that they can do this without = threatening their business model. > Who can help me? >=20 > A public demo? Yes! Are you saying that if our (my) neighborhood ISP = adopted the lessons from the public demo, most of the latency issues = would be solved? What won=E2=80=99t get fixed? How do we make this a = widely adopted best practice? Am I crying over issues that are already = fixed? Does this simplify the issues at the FCC? >=20 > Gene > ---------------------------------------------- > Eugene Chang > IEEE Life Senior Member >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Apr 30, 2024, at 11:07 AM, Dave Taht > wrote: >>=20 >> Just fq codel or cake everything and you get all that. >>=20 >> Libreqos is free software for those that do not want to update their = data plane. Perhaps we should do a public demo of what it can do for = every tech on the planet. Dsl benefits, fiber does also (but it is the = stats that matter more on fiber because the customer wifi becomes = bloated) >>=20 >> Starlink merely fq codeled their wifi and did some aqm work (not = codel I think) to get the amazing results they are getting today. I = don't have the waveform test results handy but they are amazing. I feel = a sea change in the wind... >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On Tue, Apr 30, 2024, 12:51=E2=80=AFPM Eugene Y Chang via Starlink = > = wrote: >> Colin, >> I am overwhelmed with all the reasons that prevent low(er) or = consistent latency. >> I think that our best ISP offerings should deliver graceful, agile, = or nimble service. Sure, handle all the high-volume data. The = high-volume service just shouldn=E2=80=99t preclude graceful service. = Yes, the current ISP practices fall short. Can we help them improve = their service? >>=20 >> Am I asking too much? >>=20 >> Gene >> ---------------------------------------------- >> Eugene Chang >> IEEE Life Senior Member >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Apr 30, 2024, at 9:31 AM, Colin_Higbie via Starlink = > = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Gene, >>>=20 >>> I think the lion's share of other people (many brilliant people = here) on this thread are focused on keeping latency down when under = load. I generally just read and don't contribute on those discussions, = because that's not my area of expertise. I only posted my point on = bandwidth, not to detract from the importance of reducing latency, but = to correct what I believed to be an important error on minimum bandwidth = required to be able to perform standard Internet functions. >>>=20 >>> To my surprise, there was pushback on the figure, so I've responded = to try to educate this group on streaming usage in the hope that the = people working on the latency problem under load (core reason for this = group to exist) can also be aware of the minimum bandwidth needs to = ensure they don't plan based on bad assumptions. >>>=20 >>> For a single user, minimum bandwidth (independent of latency) needs = to be at least 25Mbps assuming the goal is to provide access to all = standard Internet services. Anything short of that will deny users = access to the primary streaming services, and more specifically won't be = able to watch 4K HDR video, which is the market standard for streaming = services today and likely will remain at that level for the next several = years. >>>=20 >>> I think it's fine to offer lower-cost options that don't deliver 4K = HDR video (not everyone cares about that), but at least 25Mbps should be = available to an Internet customer for any new Internet service rollout. >>>=20 >>> Cheers, >>> Colin >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Starlink > On Behalf Of = starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net = >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2024 3:05 PM >>> To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net = >>> Subject: Starlink Digest, Vol 37, Issue 15 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>=20 >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 09:04:43 -1000 >>> From: Eugene Y Chang > >>> To: Colin_Higbie >, Dave Taht via Starlink >>> > >>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] It=E2=80=99s the Latency, FCC >>> Message-ID: <438B1BC4-D465-497A-B6BA-700E1D411036@ieee.org = > >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" >>>=20 >>> I am always surprised how complicated these discussions become. = (Surprised mostly because I forgot the kind of issues this community = care about.) The discussion doesn=E2=80=99t shed light on the following = scenarios. >>>=20 >>> While watching stream content, activating controls needed to switch = content sometimes (often?) have long pauses. I attribute that to buffer = bloat and high latency. >>>=20 >>> With a happy household user watching streaming media, a second user = could have terrible shopping experience with Amazon. The interactive = response could be (is often) horrible. (Personally, I would be doing = email and working on a shared doc. The Amazon analogy probably applies = to more people.) >>>=20 >>> How can we deliver graceful performance to both persons in a = household? >>> Is seeking graceful performance too complicated to improve? >>> (I said =E2=80=9Cgraceful=E2=80=9D to allow technical flexibility.) >>>=20 >>> Gene >>> ---------------------------------------------- >>> Eugene Chang >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Starlink mailing list >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net = >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink = >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net = >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink = >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink = --Apple-Mail=_2FD43D4E-D4DB-4961-986C-E379F818FCEE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Frank,
Thank you. What you suggest makes sense = if it was objective!

In my neighborhood, the ISP=E2=80=99s organization will feel = they have nothing to learn from outsiders. (Worst, both major ISPs are = just a subsidiary of another organization. They just implement corporate = standards. The local managers are not motivated to deviate from their = corporate marching orders.)

A public promotion (campaign) of modern best practices is = needed. Then I need to have this campaign spill over to the subscriber = community. The business community needs to be educated that their = productivity will improve. The social leaders need to learn that their = community will get better service. Then, and only then, can I see the = ISP feeling the need to improve. It helps if the improvement is just = open-source software on their hardware investment.


Gene
----------------------------------------------
Eugene Chang
IEEE Life Senior Member



On Apr 30, 2024, at 11:35 AM, Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com> wrote:

Eugene - the easiest thing in the = case of your ISP would be tell him about us: https://libreqos.io

He can take a look on = it, join our support chat and get help if he won't be able to get it up = and running: https://chat.libreqos.io/join/fvu3cerayyaumo377xwvpev6/

But most of the = ISPs don't need to talk with us at all, it's easy to deploy.


All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: = +421919416714 

iMessage, mobile: = +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com



On Tue, Apr 30, 2024 at 11:22=E2=80=AFPM = Eugene Y Chang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
OK. I need help teaching my ISPs that they can do this = without threatening their business model.
Who can help = me?

A public = demo? Yes! Are you saying that if our (my) neighborhood ISP adopted the = lessons from the public demo, most of the latency issues would be = solved? What won=E2=80=99t get fixed? How do we make this a widely = adopted best practice? Am I crying over issues that are already fixed? = Does this simplify the issues at the FCC?

Gene
----------------------------------------------
Eugene Chang
IEEE Life Senior = Member




On Apr 30, 2024, at 11:07 AM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:

Just fq codel or cake everything = and you get all that.

Libreqos is free software = for those that do not want to update their data plane. Perhaps we should = do a public demo of what it can do for every tech on the planet. Dsl = benefits, fiber does also (but it is the stats that matter more on fiber = because the customer wifi becomes bloated)

Starlink = merely fq codeled their wifi and did some aqm work (not codel I think) = to get the amazing results they are getting today. I don't have the = waveform test results handy but they are amazing. I feel a sea change in = the wind...



On Tue, Apr = 30, 2024, 12:51=E2=80=AFPM Eugene Y Chang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
Colin,
I am overwhelmed with all the reasons = that prevent low(er) or consistent latency.
I think = that our best ISP offerings should deliver graceful, agile, or nimble = service. Sure, handle all the high-volume data. The high-volume service = just shouldn=E2=80=99t preclude graceful service. Yes, the current ISP = practices fall short. Can we help them improve their service?

Am I asking too = much?

Gene
----------------------------------------------
Eugene Chang
IEEE Life Senior = Member




On Apr 30, 2024, at 9:31 AM, Colin_Higbie via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> = wrote:

Gene,

I think the lion's share of other people (many = brilliant people here) on this thread are focused on keeping latency = down when under load. I generally just read and don't contribute on = those discussions, because that's not my area of expertise. I only = posted my point on bandwidth, not to detract from the importance of = reducing latency, but to correct what I believed to be an important = error on minimum bandwidth required to be able to perform standard = Internet functions.

To my surprise, there = was pushback on the figure, so I've responded to try to educate this = group on streaming usage in the hope that the people working on the = latency problem under load (core reason for this group to exist) can = also be aware of the minimum bandwidth needs to ensure they don't plan = based on bad assumptions.

For a single = user, minimum bandwidth (independent of latency) needs to be at least = 25Mbps assuming the goal is to provide access to all standard Internet = services. Anything short of that will deny users access to the primary = streaming services, and more specifically won't be able to watch 4K HDR = video, which is the market standard for streaming services today and = likely will remain at that level for the next several years.

I think it's fine to offer lower-cost options = that don't deliver 4K HDR video (not everyone cares about that), but at = least 25Mbps should be available to an Internet customer for any new = Internet service rollout.

Cheers,
Colin


-----Original= Message-----
From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of = starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net
Sent: = Tuesday, April 30, 2024 3:05 PM
To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
Subject: Starlink Digest, Vol 37, Issue 15


---------------------------------------------------------------= -------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, = 30 Apr 2024 09:04:43 -1000
From: Eugene Y Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.org>
To: Colin_Higbie = <CHigbie1@Higbie.name>, Dave Taht via = Starlink
= <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: = Re: [Starlink] It=E2=80=99s the Latency, FCC
Message-ID: = <438B1BC4-D465-497A-B6BA-700E1D411036@ieee.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"

I am always surprised how complicated these discussions = become. (Surprised mostly because I forgot the kind of issues this = community care about.) The discussion doesn=E2=80=99t shed light on the = following scenarios.

While watching stream = content, activating controls needed to switch content sometimes (often?) = have long pauses. I attribute that to buffer bloat and high latency.

With a happy household user watching streaming = media, a second user could have terrible shopping experience with = Amazon. The interactive response could be (is often) horrible. = (Personally, I would be doing email and working on a shared doc. The = Amazon analogy probably applies to more people.)

How can we deliver graceful performance to both persons in a = household?
Is seeking graceful performance too complicated = to improve?
(I said =E2=80=9Cgraceful=E2=80=9D to allow = technical flexibility.)

Gene
----------------------------------------------
Eugene Chang

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

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