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Bad." Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: > So by running D2C, they're essentially throwing an expensive resource = at an application with fairly limited earnings potential. >=20 > But hey, it's great if all you need is TXT on a hike. I don=E2=80=99t know a ton about the business relationship between = Starlink and OneNZ (or T-Mobile here in the States) but to be honest = this is how I've always viewed any of the direct-to-mobile Starlink = services. Can=E2=80=99t imagine it being worth the effort on its own, = but makes more sense to me as a super-low-bandwidth supplement for = texting/calling, especially in an emergency context. Much more interesting, IMO, is targeted coverage of higher-density = remote areas (e.g. small towns/villages/farms or highways) using = Starlink to backhaul a cell tower. I assume some networks are doing = that, but it=E2=80=99s hard to find good information online as the first = case tends to crowd out the results. > On Oct 29, 2025, at 13:28, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink = wrote: >=20 > On 30/10/2025 4:29 am, Michael Richardson wrote: >> Ulrich Speidel via Starlink wrote: >> > In July 2025, One NZ extended the service to phones on prepay = plans, >> > including the plan I'm on ... as long as I'd have an eligible = phone. >> Is your phone eligible because it lacks the right radios, or because = it's not >> blessed? > I've no idea, but I suspect that a range of cheaper phones (mine does = 3G/4G/5G) have lower sensitivity radios than the higher end devices = (read: elevated noise floors due to proximity to heat generating = components in the phone, smaller antenna size, conductors carrying RF = that aren't gold-plated, coarser signal processing, interference from = processing chips in the phone etc.). >> My experience with NZ consists of changing planes in Auckland in = 2024. >> (And that's my own time to the southern hemisphere). > That's how I first got here so you're in good company ;-) >> I don't know how much >> of NZ is unserved by 3G/4G. It sounds to be that the One NZ = terrestial >> network coverage is pretty good? >=20 > Basically, yes. The three mobile carriers here cover - at least to TXT = quality - most places where people would normally be. Rural locations = used to be an issue until the government knocked heads together and = forced the three carriers to found a common subsidiary, the Rural = Connectivity Group (RCG), to set up cell sites in rural areas on which = the three carriers would be virtual tenants. The downside of this of = course is that when these go down, so do all three networks, as we had = ample opportunity to witness during Cyclone Gabrielle a couple of years = ago. There is also pretty good coastal coverage for boaties from the = terrestrial network, although the Starlink-based service reaches further = out. >=20 > The remaining "uncovered" area still makes up around 40% of the land = surface according to One NZ, but these are generally places where there = are extremely few people. Much is bush / forest and where there is = remote farmland, the locals usually have land mobile / CB radios to = communicate. >=20 >>=20 >> Canada has similiar concentrations of coverage, with most of the = smaller >> operators having big-city-only coverage. Many smaller towns can have >> effective single suppliers (Yes, there is a duopoly. But some towns = have >> very few towers from the "other") > Canada is similar in many respects but has a much larger land area and = lower population density over much of it. >>=20 >> What I'd want is a $4/day-pass for when I go hiking. I don't think = current >> emergency call support covers emergency txt. Is there even spec for = txt to >> 911, I don't know. It would, I think be tolerant of much lower = bandwidth. >> A day-pass could be "messaging" only, like the airlines "free" wifi = level. > ... which is pretty much what you'd get here (provided you subscribed = to the more expensive basic prepay package). >>=20 >> > They're also working on getting the data service working. Which = will support >> > a limited number of mostly messaging apps only by the looks of = it. Different >> > flavour of TXT I suppose. >>=20 >> I'm not sure why this is difficult; if I were asked to implement I'd = just >> block a bunch of well-known streaming end-points on day one. Yes, = blocking >> youtube blocks all sorts of other google services. I'd fix that day = two >> as I got bandwidth based caps/throttling implemented. >=20 > This isn't a networking problem predominantly, but an RF engineering = one. Essentially, your classical cellphone network works on the premise = that you can serve more users by bringing the base stations closer to = them, which allows (a) lower power use and (b) conserves their battery. = The lower power use then allows you to re-use your frequencies further = down the road. >=20 > This alone implies that when your "cell tower" is many hundred of km = away, this goes against the grain of the cell system design philosophy. = You now need more power (or larger antennas) and re-using your = frequencies isn't all that easy anymore. You can't put large antennas on = people's phones, so the only place to put them is in space. >=20 > But wait, it gets worse. Frequency matters. >=20 > Normal Starlink downlinks to DIshy users on Ku band frequencies. = That's between 10,700 MHz and 12,700 MHz (note also that's a 2 GHz = bandwidth). For the Starlink cell service, One NZ gets them to use 1800 = MHz in what is now a 15 MHz bandwidth = (https://www.linkedin.com/posts/richardhaas99_new-new-zealand-mobile-opera= tor-one-has-activity-7358493392294580225-NVsr/). That's at least a = factor of 6 in terms of frequency. >=20 > Consider an RF communication system with fixed physical dimensions = (antenna sizes, distance between transmitter and receiver) and a fixed = transmit power. Assume for a moment that you can make this use any = frequency you like (i.e., ignore antenna resonances, = transmitter/receiver tuning etc.). The received power that you will then = have available at your receiver is proportional to the square of the = transmit frequency. This gives Ku band a 6*6=3D36 fold advantage over = the cell band, and that's before you start looking at the bandwidth. >=20 > Moreover, the higher your frequency, the more directional your = antennas become. That is, Starlink has a much easier time projecting a = Ku band beam at a location than a cell signal. And it sure looks like = they're struggling a bit with the former, even with Ku band cells much = larger than your typical mobile phone cell. And that's with you pointing = your Dishy at the sky as instructed rather than having it at the bottom = of your gym bag. So your cell phone signal from space isn't exactly = laser pointer material, and getting the tiny device in your pocket to = hit just the satellite you're meant to communicate with is an uphill = struggle at the best of times. >=20 > So, basically, fitting data in next to TXT isn't trivial. >=20 > For One NZ and their colleagues at T-Mobile etc. overseas, this means = that once they earmark a cell phone frequency for satellite use, they = can't really use it on the ground anymore because a satellite using it = is now going to be "heard" all over the place and not just where the = user is. Neither can they re-use that frequency in multiple locations = all that easily. Read: Commit a frequency for satellite use in the = northern North Island and you can't - in all probability - use it = anywhere in Auckland. Engineering aside, they now face the extra problem = that ... spectrum is expensive. In 2021, that cost NZ$720,000 per MHz = (https://www.rsm.govt.nz/about/news-and-updates/renewal-of-management-righ= ts-in-the-1800-mhz-and-2100-mhz-bands). So that 15 MHz band for D2C = would have cost One NZ just upwards of US$6M. >=20 >=20 >=20 >>=20 > --=20 > **************************************************************** > Dr. Ulrich Speidel >=20 > School of Computer Science >=20 > Room 303S.594 (City Campus) >=20 > The University of Auckland > u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz > http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ > **************************************************************** >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net