From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from vsmx002.dclux.xion.oxcs.net (vsmx002.dclux.xion.oxcs.net [185.74.65.108]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 075B63B29D for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 02:43:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vsmx002.dclux.xion.oxcs.net (unknown [185.74.64.105]) by mx-out.dclux.xion.oxcs.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6355CA607E3; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 06:43:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from proxy-6.proxy.shared.ham.xion.oxcs.net (proxy-6.proxy.shared.ham.xion.oxcs.net [47.141.17.173]) by mx-out.dclux.xion.oxcs.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 13904B006E4; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 06:43:29 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dclux.xion.oxcs.net; s=mail1; t=1742280214; bh=LwSrqG/S+H6WI7LLapB+z+rwAYXzL59sy1vKy+wcOcA=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=fChVDYd+u+eXeTXMnvK0lpyXLhEaaxAdVxW33Pc/r0qyFP/m3ZCnDoRUvkY8TTZTi V/cQVRuF059wPoW9t5xlq0TfHUMmXcRoIeek1gK7sc27ablFacvDJFlGSWXKQvU5fG YwJ+I573yT1Irb+rJeUHhosxwGVEdOPDhtnLVEgOdPVx1iGKTcUlvdArUQVwuQwZYc ZS7Ndzt9fOW8yyGaHsi8RWrJrBycAqusuuJ6goBycOqfPitnedTiYih1kXKWiBaz1p df0SYAEjt0TyVHlmn/q8p7ntBX7j/3xteRvXigBkIcEAUWUwSdNAVrUJGSAoGP5EgT OdDPx9gk6WAqg== Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2025 23:43:13 -0700 From: Mike Puchol To: Starlink , 5grm-satellite@ieee.org Message-ID: <524ae111-aa24-4fb8-9447-c4046902987d@Spark> In-Reply-To: <822574.1742275322@dyas> References: <6nn799r0-q896-4osn-23no-733oorno0p55@ynat.uz> <1oqn4685-8qsp-923n-9p4s-487rn4p65o77@ynat.uz> <822574.1742275322@dyas> X-Readdle-Message-ID: 524ae111-aa24-4fb8-9447-c4046902987d@Spark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="67d91607_98a3148_15d2" X-VadeSecure-Status: LEGIT X-VADE-STATUS: LEGIT Subject: Re: [Starlink] Alphabet spins off Starlink competitor Taara X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2025 06:43:36 -0000 --67d91607_98a3148_15d2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline As I work for Taara, I=E2=80=99ll be happy to answer doubts & questions w= here I can=21 With that, a few thoughts. Please note that these are my own personal mus= ings, and not the official position of Taara - I=E2=80=99m not in PR or m= arcomms. IMHO the =E2=80=9CTaara is going to compete with Starlink=E2=80=9D is a c= omment that was taken by a reporter and turned into the major headline. T= hink of it in terms of every time you heard of a social network startup b= ecoming the new =E2=80=9C=46acebook killer=E2=80=9D. Taara is currently p= laying in the middle mile, it is point to point, terrestrial only, and wi= ll move into last mile with the help of the optical phased array (the =E2= =80=9CTaara chip=E2=80=9D that was announced at MWC). In order to directly compete with Starlink, we=E2=80=99d have to become a= fully fledged ISP, and vertically integrate the whole distribution down = to individual customers - and we know what kind of investment that requir= es. Can we help ISPs that play on the same turf as Starlink=3F Sure. Can = we help in urban cellular networks where densification is challenged by c= ongested R=46 and costly fiber=3F Yes indeed. Are we a replacement for St= arlink=3F No. As for the current Taara Lightbridge system, it is a point to point, Eart= h-based, 20 Gbps bidirectional system. The maximum rated distance is 20 k= m as we keep a certain reserve margin, however, we successfully closed a = link at 54 km across the Bay Area, and technically we could achieve 75 km= with zero margin. How do we keep a laser aligned=3F We use a combination of coarse pointing= mirror which gives us 6=C2=BA at slow rates (think compensation for stru= ctural movements due to day/night thermals), and a fine steering mirror t= hat can adjust 0.5=C2=BA at very high rates, used to compensate vibration= s, and to some extent, scintillation. The chip allows us to remove some of these mechanical components and comp= ress some of the system, for example, removing the coarse pointing mirror= and making the telescope smaller. The OPA allows focusing and steering t= he laser beam, and also compensate for phase and wave front errors, somet= hing we can=E2=80=99t do with Lightbridge. Weather does affect the optical spectrum, to the tune of hundreds of dB/k= m at certain wavelengths - in scenarios where this can be a factor, we ca= n be deployed in hybrid with an R=46 system. Our typical use cases are ca= pacity upgrades, where instead of replacing an existing microwave link wi= th another microwave link to maybe gain 1-2 Gbps, the operator can gain 2= 0 Gbps for 95-99.9% of the time. Best, Mike On Mar 17, 2025 at 22:22 -0700, Michael Richardson via Starlink , wrote: > > David Lang via Starlink wrote: > > Since it kept talking about being a replacement for Starlink, I assum= ed > > that the towers would communicate with satellites. If there are no > > satellites being used, then it's not going to be a Starlink competito= r > > as you would have to build a long chain of laser towers to try and > > provide service everywhere. > > (It would work fine for the flat earth types though) > (or if you live on Terry Pratchard's Discword) > > But, seriously we have lots and lots of microwave towers from decades a= go. > I think most are abandonned due to fibre being better, but getting new = rights > of way for fiber is probably hard. The railways were delighted to be > involved 30 years ago, but now, I suspect the field is closed to any ne= w > entrants. > > So lasers between towers makes a lot of sense to me. > Particularly through/across marshy tundra in, for instance, Canada's no= rth. > > Just not between pacific islands. > > -- > =5D Never tell me the odds=21 =7C ipv6 mesh networks =5B > =5D Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works =7C network architect = =5B > =5D mcr=40sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ =7C ruby on rails =5B > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F > Starlink mailing list > Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --67d91607_98a3148_15d2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
As I work for Taara, I=E2=80=99ll be happy to answe= r doubts & questions where I can=21&=23160;

With that, a few thoughts. Please note that these are my own personal mus= ings, and not the official position of Taara - I=E2=80=99m not in PR or m= arcomms.

IMHO the =E2=80=9CTaara is going to compete with Starlink=E2=80=9D is a c= omment that was taken by a reporter and turned into the major headline. T= hink of it in terms of every time you heard of a social network startup b= ecoming the new =E2=80=9C=46acebook killer=E2=80=9D. Taara is currently p= laying in the middle mile, it is point to point, terrestrial only, and wi= ll move into last mile with the help of the optical phased array (the =E2= =80=9CTaara chip=E2=80=9D that was announced at MWC).

In order to directly compete with Starlink, we=E2=80=99d have to become a= fully fledged ISP, and vertically integrate the whole distribution down = to individual customers - and we know what kind of investment that requir= es. Can we help ISPs that play on the same turf as Starlink=3F Sure. Can = we help in urban cellular networks where densification is challenged by c= ongested R=46 and costly fiber=3F Yes indeed. Are we a replacement for St= arlink=3F No.

As for the current Taara Lightbridge system, it is a point to point, Eart= h-based, 20 Gbps bidirectional system. The maximum rated distance is 20 k= m as we keep a certain reserve margin, however, we successfully closed a = link at 54 km across the Bay Area, and technically we could achieve 75 km= with zero margin.

How do we keep a laser aligned=3F We use a combination of coarse pointing= mirror which gives us 6=C2=BA at slow rates (think compensation for stru= ctural movements due to day/night thermals), and a fine steering mirror t= hat can adjust 0.5=C2=BA at very high rates, used to compensate vibration= s, and to some extent, scintillation.

The chip allows us to remove some of these mechanical components and comp= ress some of the system, for example, removing the coarse pointing mirror= and making the telescope smaller. The OPA allows focusing and steering t= he laser beam, and also compensate for phase and wave front errors, somet= hing we can=E2=80=99t do with Lightbridge.

Weather does affect the optical spectrum, to the tune of hundreds of dB/k= m at certain wavelengths - in scenarios where this can be a factor, we ca= n be deployed in hybrid with an R=46 system. Our typical use cases are ca= pacity upgrades, where instead of replacing an existing microwave link wi= th another microwave link to maybe gain 1-2 Gbps, the operator can gain 2= 0 Gbps for 95-99.9% of the time.

Best,

Mike
On Mar 17, 2025 at 22:22 -0700, Mic= hael Richardson via Starlink <starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net>, wr= ote:

David Lang via Starlink <starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
Since it kept talking about being a replace= ment for Starlink, I assumed
that the towers would communicate with satellites. If there are no
satellites being used, then it's not going to be a Starlink competitor as you would have to build a long chain of laser towers to try and
provide service everywhere.

(It would work fine for the flat earth types though)
(or if you live on Terry Pratchard's Discword)

But, seriously we have lots and lots of microwave towers from decades ago= .
I think most are abandonned due to fibre being better, but getting new ri= ghts
of way for fiber is probably hard. The railways were delighted to be
involved 30 years ago, but now, I suspect the field is closed to any new<= br /> entrants.

So lasers between towers makes a lot of sense to me.
Particularly through/across marshy tundra in, for instance, Canada's nort= h.

Just not between pacific islands.

--
=5D Never tell me the odds=21 =7C ipv6 mesh networks =5B
=5D Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works =7C network architect =5B=
=5D mcr=40sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ =7C ruby on rails =5B


=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
Starlink mailing list
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