From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Authentication-Results: mail.toke.dk; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=; dkim=pass header.d=gmx.de header.i=moeller0@gmx.de; arc=none (Message is not ARC signed); dmarc=pass (Used From Domain Record) header.from=gmx.de policy.dmarc=quarantine Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.15]) by mail.toke.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9583F65FA50 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2025 08:00:22 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1757484015; x=1758088815; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=aeWOHI4092sawtfE5qPiyCjVDxisKNDEsfXYDZvqz9g=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id: References:To:cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from: message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=NprO6ALX59v5LB8UHQg3xeJWalbaqqbO8oJKDuThhcEHNwKmNZ99KLZ2VzsTkts7 Cm/7tG1bPQo+dwOAX7bxb65FOwsVoi1l2+fzA5cWmejKz6QcI3XqwB2EHS0wapd6M i95rC8ZzjGxBhfyMbuV/oBU3B3XGUNWgJLUOoOr40J90vhFt1VjfCgox8I4OUhyLQ opZFEBXe2EFl9S0oJYZfsJVkFISgvlQDDp8yE0LIYFJqFB9YwZCWd5jJ++dVEV9md TPjc2Yme94O8hZgy1DWA02MRPwPjNrpAlyHWaWDpNX2mB11hI/N9h1lin/CNA1UeP oia1ojjvQKv1UD0YMw== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MHXFr-1v9AAY158r-004fST; Wed, 10 Sep 2025 08:00:15 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.700.81\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2025 08:00:04 +0200 Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <53818AC2-2651-49AC-80A7-A940FE4BCD54@gmx.de> References: <175739769285.1561.9299932820839760282@gauss> <048be086-22b8-4c20-9be8-e4f86e620031@olegkutkov.me> To: Ulrich Speidel X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.700.81) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:EF61bLySs7KElxfPGWVHKap2G0tlGYSnCLFfW3siC+PrdWAXpdt 7B4/e/kS05Hr2wfa/8qz1bNA/rSlVvuOG9jYGbhqD606OoJC9UWJx+dY5Ko6K6tQql8Ins2 F+MdyUj2SThRXSAvs2G06zDjGzLbWTGmV0Fp17wUpmkE2UFK4cKOARewPwuB2wy+9dG3WPS qFlAGPPQ1IqsKGxoiRyIw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:WDzqRVQOwaM=;AJV+CfvUSUc4K5qCQKXnachRIZv CtdDGUVAH342avB6Tv7SccvSsID3zZ8IWV5uRIiPZzq52JHZCyJXYV/f3Tkw0DhtHj5bDa2Ry 3padJKuskmar4sMvdsI4tx3EhQho3mgz8nKGYfqBx/yjXFzsus1Mxoe8jkjVYqu9H+KLaNtRt k1s5jKaViP1XYk5cETYjORTwQXlqP26bnIY0ZfxxLjxvQKylI9y3/KthsVdPJ4POz4AmWpxXW gyqzruMobiD4WJ4w84L1gO09OAgvEZRu1C3P6Z81fLusXxAi6Gx7X3dlQxEDmfOj6CauDvv0E 4RDBjArqiviJkBW0eD55KUjOePV1iFHVt3tI08w0LvN6K5zPxmvdP3wepdLxSLjJEREYEwVQ6 Gmo+CPUvQzhi3hE7vOTmpjv3roi6u+BTO8EUc9NZRnKo8WGzmsczGYeNMRTeO44DgBuLG8Qte THRzT/9uueZU/PhkAJZt3enluICauUaUWg7UBtk/tfpzKwQueYl5aUmhV+UJkMp0+W/k+CZER nof4svJuZGF+Jh4ZZLBLw5cmUZcfACTqwX087HsjY86PmZIRiQqXYOiRZ0w/ZA9s2Ou4+jou/ sEqD0zILVihWyZo8fsvwYo6qDqWPzZ+BozKx38/TvnVFs1Mz9y7Ppd9wXuvNx3WHxs0GUuyJb jm+l5reK79RnQriJza4PiXFGLLAKXBC8Y5Ve3kGGNaKZEbW4IC42DdI8Zgxo3VGfWcT2438eu MvWmTE7Ez1iCDzMHIa57tpPHzFZgpaPbyFl2g2qY0isb6yYehOOx5VpM6EkDmJKpbMKEaO0qM 6Tr1RRF99UAKd3RpBgdKHjqHgrqB+zMOTXH2refIYsndPCyXusg7vsc95YiXkex4cXPyfVoBM vJRHnYBinHsqB+9JafbukRAE1V+XrAeNydDVjPg6GpdH6WwWUaLfRG05Pua+QFyAjUFi4NyIe UDk4d6f9ZCqnQrS7OLyjcmRtGHHD9PCj2oYUnGFkRgaKvV/pzjeGKeQT3FkZDsTAk45yShKCV U3O56AqtAGt38wi98ov3dC4kracPvenQ7ipyOHEaRkVrbDDWRs5GGU/CQzck0jHH2bGC3sG3P hDLpaDNMstoor9zlaHU4J/P2Mjb3rpgb+I4f2bkYIuBCM3gKzOJUo8hjWzbwgoWEIFUVWsPOE kvdPDPCk9EcHvWF8cjLgsCKP+agptEgjnShU4bhnR4rBvHXpEmkAxcRynmi4cdue5Dioft7XA srNyIyiDzypWOiualAmRtY2klds7lHOQVKu/cGhZhSorwtSQ9JDdtXCaB3TzSDqjuacJPO0J/ 6I+e2bJ2ECp9kMOQMLJqj8332jOoHkG+bwHibZHrFzzVTwtgKznrtSgt4zuKEa9vlYEUzB5pI /GutQsTN8FFWoItFGzullYEus50ioMO1Cpu9swvcHJkTm6owqA/j8NEcb4VUHk4koCdlksOpu GMK9CFa7mCQNKYL0YZO9ZNHCW17Jc+IGZNHb8j/VkWMiRK/QK0pgrt4BHSdLUqDMHo+kXv3U+ fGUJCT1Ts7Z1y0nIWXDzj0GbbBgep3tjkRu+sx4kOruGXY2+CYvcPezxBnJshSiYWjL+3SH8a vO/2OR43p4pRtx2lQjPsF0tx9UaO3mCjIYKAvSOBjsD9jUwiyOfn2M/oEYWWoL9S5ZhJ3IUpu JoQ2Hhm4YM0//iBi9Ij584boZPHRuWBr6WXLJ5YMaOMB9/HMs5F6Ra3sn8SWoYTBPSBIOlBI+ C1ReRtpoDdL7nO7aFI63gJ3Xu3yp20f9q8i0TGJERzfKBNs50kTk8KXitnxO/UUyem/34cPxp yYuPLNcQn2WKS4G+uhaOR0xnZ0TBrLo8xAzIvakY0IKFRRpBIjn6lQMnt3mieMvqmLAu1ioXT 563FMp+f9r/LFM0yvt72muwKCs/lThk19iGX0s0SQB8198j4mkxcJ74XKF0L+MAsWikzBcIHe 39yjMX+XpmSsjBHYhfTeR5468hkAQ7fY9x3oULXSo3nAdNex+8No1vM+XLkPpxVOLaGS9xoQw x+uhMBgd8orC156WliyChqT8xLa7+2ofa9pIQ9UVPyiW1LNa3i6u2A6W3ddepnnske6h9u+7x RYA4otH+CYBD6rTdKUwV1DcPYQp/V1fBV6yQnFu0qT1JiDqhYoXsi157SoJekDQCUN2cp+ZSw Mp5Hh8XC8t+Bo+HRR917xXmNRT8w1IRxdPR+uB24umNY8C1jw+3Qa1N/8TjEq3er7Dhh0QjZh VsNtkvA1StLhSAvNSFAV44dcvemwajArYeWZyHVDY0rNJkZNQXK2vzr/mYraXTJ5DUIpZFbcZ HQWCL0WDGK+g41icuIEPoMHJfXGbe5JHlbP72uFkmuBoHu3niAF3IO55dXpHFV4tvFecmh23o 51Rf6ZB3ZY0lalbO3UrbQvw1FvKeYVHc9c4Ar+RDXkq7vf6iCxGpB6LUqDXZ38MlcBXsJZY5v BAKn7pEsuEJrTTmJnMES5967wN0o0SGcbUP49E5ZxOi7o4SupSuVdB5OJ2IkojExsAu++nk3D FdogqhqVjwUV5/IgKX9cmsUu0L+K3HLQE6nUFcVEmmpFDj9ghoSzOoV8SV9Y9pEJsyshw+IqC HN0ZMxXKoWX47sJkoY0A2ZYiOqJX74du4a9ImieV8RSPEjSa3Qk0TS37MnnFUWFzlAP9mrUE7 KTpFTdINzcwN4HmmjHilfl7n4/MCvA0iGJHhtFC+diUw/hVHVREOuXTy83SaPR/FvbZBBATSX 3W22MhQQ6mdFcr8Qy5zHOh6tWOj7neYQn2jR8yCe95chdQEZfuE4zaXJSPOyjylhK58k197v8 sEO8wLAft0YaMmRkDx4F7r7uycFMEVLi0Jv4qsvqlzW+kRAma31mtMYhay2bgfWade1KkpoYH JON7KHe8k4dkGZ0Ihf9fWh1ZwlXZXdvlQGCjds+h9UENkOzYmOEs+iCK+bN9l30+CmdIcSnFu Ya+qd/wCm86knCRyR3SaCDWrwcg3xqyhfV3/K1RF2qI+ggJK3Itf1i6j89VhxD/GVh2FnCRMK lOTW85gbqIGl/pC5xjxvhASsHPYBbytqD5/drxxb6OXIyYMlLtjW252BW+QwoB2wjGffkueAy CuAxoF9DdMOeg/zDFETRXfw77Gzu8lQedk7FY1469f0XR0RTTNwdrbySIaZgtxYvYG6foMuRn px/jQ7HIa+lPBT22RGyQltncHFegO7FEKrmpEFkEMOFMIJA5NbIEhPbwRzOQo2xZOdljAOL7m skFC7jJht8cv6q29d/o2YY0+H1iQ64U1eBftAvC5lyedQwBg4GJnydPEGcZ9zED711POAaH0/ f5UGf59nwY45OOGr/L5UKdK2wOwxJ4+a8+LFBmGA0kh/fSZyObBPedd+bNiew3z+lOKW/GiQ1 hR7+iL/d0A6fYVlRz4LxVFIlVsLiyNXeiWnqi7o1lUickDgN7pGob0ngSzdWQhf+X2FG2UjUR /azLFdlihMOihHmy2nN87nSWjedwRvKew+g85HzJ14I6ALMO7UdYtGXwZzCM/mKP1JUIPC4rj ZLl/iYtyDDxTTQyBQkxIbQ4jSem4A5JlLLcRtlefL19SOwyeivGVTWNpBrh+TLme1zpxbyRPV e/96wS5SALYA4LXiuCoQKPh87ofu+TWRSBFj2peGdbHFs8nQB9sVVMTNjymoGIuwNdMLUGlWW aZnH/RqxK2Wz8JWjd3q60ChrCleLgnfhHAvFdB9iWlIC95IVG5aUczSLToCM9IkWAzd0NurwZ 62d6cn61eSGx1HULHzxo+UgIwq3DzL06jkY1XQ/1D0aJHG06tnTtuFgv8DrtVEtE0DPCxWgwj sQVSSsf7MR5DcRKL+PoasYZ+ktUW/R8eCoiuD042SvohZfPVu7CUD6bAJNolAFmGKzL7stBFj C+y070A5IEL5iCh+Hq6SQCtda7gJvAadKVcSzi9Hikyd+Vdrn+tECfsae4tie7SVZw1b7nPnf xhewfcmcom7GEcfNVNp9T2tySzbvias9e/KpHNA1SKyib6E0oId0NY1GRn3lyCtgvPQm8QzvQ kuCmR9MlG8YyDj7HYfW6OJdTxtfRlGOhbJ6xDar0V7NbYS5y1QukC8JxdMVP9bdfqHuFXZVKc 1p4zbTm47YzG2Aj8ne7ATnq9mnNA569+i0ZMLkybfH/Buu5PtA+46a1NovqLlBQoIUSPWmVXe qvmbMPQfmCSPVkXRAmJM9vPGKS6P6OZjd1IrjxG1u41Lo62p/R+ptVpmNCtkfk5j12qVQMnD7 5l17BkyU/DHdO0zJ/4BQFU/sOHKquL4Qi1LARQ3CMwNi1kRQvJ8iMunRa2iWExAYU+TXsrALX 1K3MHR35J8kEdzc7xZJt5Z0VgjxO1gUK2eaGVSVLtwD4VvhoWCIHmtZkKxiTRum9kET8+XkG3 bsBDytsSF96A4UfMXeXE3ZPGd0tAPlI/FEZJbwRWANw58RzPWQo8EeYSkw2GhOCvsDnMH9R1a 6ZmKqIXZm85wDvOcwf1uK/qzTX5BDuFfPVTcJby30aeQ/Kk3zuFLuCwVg4gUR+sLcxdrYlz6H xxnFCvqEZpxq7rzyb8j/qYoBaIcWOq6ll8qu/tQSV+3dnnld3ARuvi60vgo2XLVvkeZDQUfEW a2oC+ndRDUpc6xUkt1JC9t752WG1oXoxA86jq Message-ID-Hash: QGWMLNFBGNNZRCB563JBTXAOYIHT3OBM X-Message-ID-Hash: QGWMLNFBGNNZRCB563JBTXAOYIHT3OBM X-MailFrom: moeller0@gmx.de X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; loop; banned-address; emergency; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list Subject: [Starlink] Re: Starlink Standby Mode List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Ulrich, thanks for the nice description. I think there is one more = (engineering-wise challenging) option, reduce the number of users per = cell by shrinking the cells... This likely would require better antennas = on the satellites and maybe better dishies, no? Same as with any other = segment-limited system, with a given user density, reduce the size and = you end up with fewer users each having a higher likelihood of getting a = larger share of the pie. Now here is my question (we might have discussed this before, but my = memory is dim), how hard would it be to say reduce the area per cell by = a factor or 2? And what is the realistic lower boundary for cell sizes = that can be gotten vom the 500 km+ orbits (and respective longer paths = when the satellite is not exactly above a dishy)? Regards Sebastian P.S.: Your scenario of a thundering herd of users rushing to their = backup link when something with the primary goes haywire seems to = haaapen over here for LTE/5G backups, fully acceptable most of the time = except those times when you really need it ;) > On 10. Sep 2025, at 07:36, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink = wrote: >=20 > What gets me here is that this is yet more evidence of SpaceX trying = to do user density and capacity management. >=20 > Recap: Spectral capacity per cell is limited - to quite how much = depends a good bit on how much service neighbouring cells need. They can = divide that capacity between users via channel division schemes such as = time division, frequency division or code division, but the bottom line = is that if you divide capacity, you end up with slices that you can = assign to users much like slices from a pie (or pizza). The more users = in a cell, the more competition for the slices. >=20 > Note also that there are two ways for Starlink to run out of capacity = in a cell: >=20 > 1. They can run out of frequencies to use. This is impossible to fix > without someone having to compromise on their slice. > 2. They can run out of beams - meaning there would be a frequency to > communicate on but there's just no satellite in view that has a beam > that it can currently point at the cell. This is possible to fix > with more satellites / beams per satellite. >=20 > Now when you are starting to run out of capacity, you have a bunch of = options at your disposal: >=20 > * You can launch more satellites with more beams to reduce beam > capacity bottlenecks. SpaceX clearly do this as their constellation > is growing in sat numbers and beams per sat. > * You can try and deter new users from signing up by charging a higher > price in the area you're running out of capacity in, or by charging > a congestion fee. We've seen SpaceX do this when they ostensibly ran > out of beams a couple of years ago in some areas & didn't extend > discount schemes to cells with high user densities. We're seeing > them do it now in many areas where new subscribers are tapped for > congestion fees. > * You can growl at existing users to try and make them go away. We've > seen SpaceX do this in an island location where local users whose > dishys were on a roaming plan but had taken up permanent residence > there were told to pack them up and continue operation elsewhere. > * You can shrink the size of the slices for existing users. If you > look at the Starlink speeds map, that's what seems to have happened > in a few of the places where they were "sold out" for a while and > are now available again. You'll be looking for the minimum download > speeds here and want to compare those with places where Starlink > user density is low. Of course, this slice shrinking isn't ideal > because folk love their bandwidth and all it takes is a cranky > influencer who isn't happy with what they see. So it's best avoided > if you can. >=20 > Last but not least, you can try and put the squeeze on the amount of = spare capacity you need to retain in case not-so-active users become = active. That's you guys with the "I have my Starlink only for backup in = case my fibre gets cut" or those of you with the "I only use my Starlink = at my summer house during the holidays". While you're not using your = Starlink, you don't need any slices, so SpaceX can sell that capacity in = the area to new users. But woe betide them should all those inactive = users suddenly activate - be it because the holidays have started, or = because that backhoe or natural disaster has hit. >=20 > So what you can do is sell smaller slices of the capacity pie and at a = cheaper price, but make that "official" so nobody complains. Similarly, = you can try and ease those out that put their plans on hold for extended = periods of time - you want to make it unattractive for them to hold on = to their entitlement to a big slice at the drop of a hat. >=20 > TLDR: I'd be a little skeptical that you'll be able to switch from a = backup plan or pause to a full one as easily as you might think. >=20 > On 10/09/2025 9:20 am, J Pan via Starlink wrote: >> nothing better than free ;-) but it may cost them more than $5/mo to >> maintain an active dish. don't they just want to keep as many >> revenue-generating customers for an upcoming ipo? >> -- >> J Pan, UVic CSc, ECS566, 250-472-5796 (NO VM),Pan@UVic.CA, = Web.UVic.CA/~pan >>=20 >> On Tue, Sep 9, 2025 at 2:01=E2=80=AFPM Oleg Kutkov via Starlink >> wrote: >>> Well. I prefer a good old free pause. >>> I have seven Starlink terminals on my account, and I mostly don't = use >>> them, except for some experiments, occasional tests, firmware dumps, = and >>> similar purposes. >>> Now they will charge me $35 each month for basically nothing. >>>=20 >>> On 9/9/25 23:14, Luis A. Cornejo via Starlink wrote: >>>> There is another electric cooperative in my county that did just = that. >>>> Strung fiber along the posts, I was not lucky enough to be part of = their >>>> territory. But from people that I know it=E2=80=99s similar = that=E2=80=99s it=E2=80=99s fast but >>>> not always reliable, so storms can take some down, often around = here it=E2=80=99s >>>> also a backhoe, and when it does down, it=E2=80=99s down for a = while. >>>>=20 >>>> But I agree, it=E2=80=99s a great backup. Although it probably = costs almost as much >>>> to run in electricity as the service itself! =3Do) >>>>=20 >>>> -Luis >>>>=20 >>>> On Tue, Sep 9, 2025 at 1:41=E2=80=AFPM Colin_Higbie via Starlink < >>>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> I find the Standby mode to be a great backup option. $5/mo for = unlimited >>>>> low-bandwidth usage. This is something I've been urging them to = offer for >>>>> about a year now. >>>>>=20 >>>>> About 18 months after I originally purchased and subscribed to = Starlink, >>>>> our power company (not phone company as you'd expect, really our = electric >>>>> power company) rolled out fiber to rural communities in northern = NH. As >>>>> great as Starlink was compared to what we had before, fiber is = even better >>>>> now that it's available (1Gbps for $79/mo, consistently tests as A = on >>>>> Bufferbloat). But it's not 100% reliable. For example, when there = are >>>>> widespread power outages, it goes down. The Starlink standby = option is >>>>> perfect for those situations. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Latency remains decent, just limited bandwidth. And if the fiber = outage >>>>> remains in effect for too long, we could always activate Starlink = at full >>>>> bandwidth for that month, where it appears they're taking that = option away >>>>> from people with inactive accounts not already on Standby mode = (they may be >>>>> bluffing on that =E2=80=93 you'd think they would want to make it = easy for anyone >>>>> to give them money and resubscribe, standby customer or not). >>>>>=20 >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Colin >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Starlink mailing list --starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email = tostarlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Starlink mailing list --starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> To unsubscribe send an email tostarlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> -- >>> Best regards, >>> Oleg Kutkov >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Starlink mailing list --starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> To unsubscribe send an email tostarlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list --starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> To unsubscribe send an email tostarlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net >=20 > --=20 > **************************************************************** > Dr. Ulrich Speidel >=20 > School of Computer Science >=20 > Room 303S.594 (City Campus) >=20 > The University of Auckland > u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ > **************************************************************** >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net