From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp03.apple.com (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp03.apple.com [17.171.2.72]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8FED23B29E for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2023 16:19:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from pps.filterd (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp03.apple.com [127.0.0.1]) by ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp03.apple.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 305LHSbi030069; Thu, 5 Jan 2023 13:19:33 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=content-type : mime-version : subject : from : in-reply-to : date : cc : message-id : references : to; s=20180706; bh=sYC/kZBYDgVdYERw40gUtHQVit53jWRgUpLirHvyUNE=; b=neGV5APxa/UQdf8zYrrUzVOgLuH93wxZVo1kJHNIhOclhskzihd204XzjwaJQAPrbatA 30dGMylXTPGIW2lJIWYyjcdjiziHvWeSqXtLiCDpjA+7r42vLh2906H7F03Asfxt0N1o ofZfcYzqzyzcFLH3OKKoRHXsxUDAiZ3NqM7fsq+IjefU08qtSxCPS9A9RlfKJJ9uzjln tUXtzkNw68l1kQrx+LqU4qsByljeXWCWWViAuElELs64CoyDXIK93KzKIgkAh3mDA5+p UoVX0ZQKJniqbWlKdRzftglOXcMHYdw8w9CeIS5benWFmuMmtdI+ZbV+BtDL/KX1FgH5 jQ== Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp03.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp03.rno.apple.com [10.225.203.151]) by ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp03.apple.com with ESMTP id 3mtmxy7gff-8 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 05 Jan 2023 13:19:33 -0800 Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com [17.179.253.15]) by rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp03.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.20.20220923 64bit (built Sep 23 2022)) with ESMTPS id <0RO100L6Q78I2M40@rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp03.rno.apple.com>; Thu, 05 Jan 2023 13:19:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from process_milters-daemon.rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.20.20220923 64bit (built Sep 23 2022)) id <0RO100G006W6WP00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com>; Thu, 05 Jan 2023 13:19:30 -0800 (PST) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: 52a241300ae568a6be503ddf926fa7ac X-Va-E-CD: ee9a6bebd044d3e51e7ef4eb8c88369f X-Va-R-CD: 40c7f6cf70fe88ba2a0c34bf444daf86 X-Va-ID: 4f0c769f-cfac-4d5d-a895-ae12c0e1a5a9 X-Va-CD: 0 X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: 52a241300ae568a6be503ddf926fa7ac X-V-E-CD: ee9a6bebd044d3e51e7ef4eb8c88369f X-V-R-CD: 40c7f6cf70fe88ba2a0c34bf444daf86 X-V-ID: 61847d82-5c30-4bd4-aac6-efce417f61ba X-V-CD: 0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.545, 18.0.923 definitions=2023-01-05_12:2023-01-05, 2023-01-05 signatures=0 Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [17.192.155.241]) by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.20.20220923 64bit (built Sep 23 2022)) with ESMTPSA id <0RO100X5778I1K00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com>; Thu, 05 Jan 2023 13:19:30 -0800 (PST) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E32A1914-B060-4E44-AC2F-34B073C2F4FD" MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.400.23\)) From: Christoph Paasch X-Priority: 3 (Normal) In-reply-to: <1672870861.69732760@apps.rackspace.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2023 13:19:20 -0800 Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink Message-id: <58319729-3458-42A6-A6BC-6B75E43E81C1@apple.com> References: <1672870861.69732760@apps.rackspace.com> To: "David P. Reed" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.400.23) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.545, 18.0.923 definitions=2023-01-05_12:2023-01-05, 2023-01-05 signatures=0 Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] the grinch meets cloudflare's christmas present X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2023 21:19:34 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E32A1914-B060-4E44-AC2F-34B073C2F4FD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I think, the cloudflare test uses a single TCP connection, while = Ookla/Fast/=E2=80=A6 use multiple connections. That=E2=80=99s probably the difference for you. Christoph > On Jan 4, 2023, at 2:21 PM, David P. Reed via Starlink = wrote: >=20 > I don't know how to debug this, but the cloudflare speed test really = sucks on my home wired network, compared to others. And also I = discovered to my chagrin that the DSLReports speedtest is now broken, at = least in my Chrome browser. > =20 > The speeds measured by Cloudflare are essentially 1/2 of both Ookla = and Fast.com. > =20 > Cloudflare in my test config gives ~500/10 Mb/sec, with a download = latency of 14.6 msec, upload latency of 11.6. > =20 > Oookla and Fast give ~980/25 Mb/sec, with "latency" being about 11 or = 12 msec. > =20 > This difference is observed over a tuned "cake" install on my Linux = router, and the home network is 10 GigE to my workstation from the = router, and the router talks to my DOCSIS cable modem on RCN at 1 GigE, = with RCN's product offering being its "Gig" product. > =20 > Now, I hate using Ookla and getting bombarded with ads! I don't really = trust fast.com, but it used to be OK. > =20 > The real disappointment was that the DSL Reports speed test, which I = used to recommend is so broken. It claims it can't reach any of its 3 = selected test sites, because I may have an "alien script" and suggests = my DNS might be "slow" or my Chrome might have browser malware. > =20 > Now, maybe Chrome has browser malware on my machine. This is troubling = to a serious degree to me, and I will be investigating. > =20 > However, Cloudflare seems to be somewhat flaky to a significant = degree. (It also doesn't seem to push a fast network connection nearly = hard enough to measure lag under load, it seems to me). > =20 > =20 > =20 > On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 2:20pm, = starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net said: >=20 > > Send Starlink mailing list submissions to > > starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >=20 > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net > >=20 > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > starlink-owner@lists.bufferbloat.net > >=20 > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Starlink digest..." > >=20 > >=20 > > Today's Topics: > >=20 > > 1. Re: [Rpm] the grinch meets cloudflare's christmas present > > (jf@jonathanfoulkes.com) > >=20 > >=20 > > = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >=20 > > Message: 1 > > Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2023 14:20:15 -0500 > > From: "jf@jonathanfoulkes.com" > > To: Dave Taht > > Cc: bloat , libreqos > > , Cake List > > , Dave Taht via Starlink > > , Rpm , > > IETF IPPM WG > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] the grinch meets cloudflare's = christmas > > present > > Message-ID: = <845161E4-474C-44A9-92D4-1702748A3DA1@jonathanfoulkes.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" > >=20 > > HNY Dave and all the rest, > >=20 > > Great to see yet another capacity test add latency metrics to the = results. This > > one looks like a good start. > >=20 > > Results from my Windstream DOCSIS 3.1 line (3.1 on download only, up = is 3.0) > > Gigabit down / 35Mbps up provisioning. Using an IQrouter Pro (an i5 = x86) with Cake > > set for 710/31 as this ISP can=E2=80=99t deliver reliable = low-latency unless you > > shave a good bit off the targets. My local loop is pretty congested. > >=20 > > Here=E2=80=99s the latest Cloudflare test: > >=20 > > -------------- next part -------------- > > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > > Name: CFSpeedTest_Gig35_20230104.png > > Type: image/png > > Size: 379539 bytes > > Desc: not available > > URL: > > = > > -------------- next part -------------- > >=20 > >=20 > > And an Ookla test run just afterward: > >=20 > > -------------- next part -------------- > > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > > Name: Speedtest_net_Gig35_20230104.png > > Type: image/png > > Size: 40589 bytes > > Desc: not available > > URL: > > = > > -------------- next part -------------- > >=20 > >=20 > > They are definitely both in the ballpark and correspond to other = tests run from > > the router itself or my (wired) MacBook Pro. > >=20 > > Cheers, > >=20 > > Jonathan > >=20 > >=20 > > > On Jan 4, 2023, at 12:26 PM, Dave Taht via Rpm > > wrote: > > > > > > Please try the new, the shiny, the really wonderful test here: > > > https://speed.cloudflare.com/ > > > > > > I would really appreciate some independent verification of > > > measurements using this tool. In my brief experiments it appears - = as > > > all the commercial tools to date - to dramatically understate the > > > bufferbloat, on my LTE, (and my starlink terminal is out being > > > hacked^H^H^H^H^H^Hworked on, so I can't measure that) > > > > > > My test of their test reports 223ms 5G latency under load , where > > > flent reports over 2seconds. See comparison attached. > > > > > > My guess is that this otherwise lovely new tool, like too many, > > > doesn't run for long enough. Admittedly, most web objects (their > > > target market) are small, and so long as they remain small and not > > > heavily pipelined this test is a very good start... but I'm pretty > > > sure cloudflare is used for bigger uploads and downloads than = that. > > > There's no way to change the test to run longer either. > > > > > > I'd love to get some results from other networks (compared as = usual to > > > flent), especially ones with cake on it. I'd love to know if they > > > measured more minimum rtts that can be obtained with fq_codel or = cake, > > > correctly. > > > > > > Love Always, > > > The Grinch > > > > > > -- > > > This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: > > > > > = https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665= 607352320-FXtz > > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > > > > = ________________= _______________________________ > > > Rpm mailing list > > > Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm > >=20 > >=20 > > ------------------------------ > >=20 > > Subject: Digest Footer > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > Starlink mailing list > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > >=20 > >=20 > > ------------------------------ > >=20 > > End of Starlink Digest, Vol 22, Issue 10 > > **************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --Apple-Mail=_E32A1914-B060-4E44-AC2F-34B073C2F4FD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I think, the = cloudflare test uses a single TCP connection, while Ookla/Fast/=E2=80=A6 = use multiple connections.

That=E2=80=99s probably the = difference for = you.


Christoph

On Jan 4, 2023, at 2:21 PM, David P. Reed via = Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

I don't know how to debug = this, but the cloudflare speed test really sucks on my home wired = network, compared to others. And also I discovered to my chagrin that = the DSLReports speedtest is now broken, at least in my Chrome = browser.

 

The speeds measured by Cloudflare are = essentially 1/2 of both Ookla and Fast.com.

 

Cloudflare in my test config gives ~500/10 Mb/sec, with a = download latency of 14.6 msec, upload latency of 11.6.

 

Oookla and Fast give ~980/25 Mb/sec, with "latency" being = about 11 or 12 msec.

 

This difference is observed over a tuned = "cake" install on my Linux router, and the home network is 10 GigE to my = workstation from the router, and the router talks to my DOCSIS cable = modem on RCN at 1 GigE, with RCN's product offering being its "Gig" = product.

 

Now, I hate using Ookla and getting = bombarded with ads! I don't really trust fast.com, but it used to be = OK.

 

The real disappointment was that the DSL Reports speed = test, which I used to recommend is so broken. It claims it can't reach = any of its 3 selected test sites, because I may have an "alien script" = and suggests my DNS might be "slow" or my Chrome might have browser = malware.

 

Now, maybe Chrome has browser malware on my = machine. This is troubling to a serious degree to me, and I will be = investigating.

 

However, Cloudflare seems to be somewhat = flaky to a significant degree. (It also doesn't seem to push a fast = network connection nearly hard enough to measure lag under load, it = seems to me).

 

 

 

On Wednesday, January 4, 2023 2:20pm, = starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net said:

> Send Starlink mailing list submissions to
> = starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>
> To subscribe or = unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> = https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> or, via email, = send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> = starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net
>
> You can reach = the person managing the list at
> = starlink-owner@lists.bufferbloat.net
>
> When replying, = please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: = Contents of Starlink digest..."
>
>
> Today's = Topics:
>
> 1. Re: [Rpm] the grinch meets cloudflare's = christmas present
> (jf@jonathanfoulkes.com)
>
> =
> = ----------------------------------------------------------------------
= >
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2023 14:20:15 = -0500
> From: "jf@jonathanfoulkes.com" = <jf@jonathanfoulkes.com>
> To: Dave Taht = <dave.taht@gmail.com>
> Cc: bloat = <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>, libreqos
> = <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>, Cake List
> = <cake@lists.bufferbloat.net>, Dave Taht via Starlink
> = <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, Rpm = <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net>,
> IETF IPPM WG = <ippm@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] the grinch = meets cloudflare's christmas
> present
> Message-ID: = <845161E4-474C-44A9-92D4-1702748A3DA1@jonathanfoulkes.com>
> = Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"
>
> HNY Dave = and all the rest,
>
> Great to see yet another capacity = test add latency metrics to the results. This
> one looks like a = good start.
>
> Results from my Windstream DOCSIS 3.1 line = (3.1 on download only, up is 3.0)
> Gigabit down / 35Mbps up = provisioning. Using an IQrouter Pro (an i5 x86) with Cake
> set = for 710/31 as this ISP can=E2=80=99t deliver reliable low-latency unless = you
> shave a good bit off the targets. My local loop is pretty = congested.
>
> Here=E2=80=99s the latest Cloudflare = test:
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> A = non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> Name: = CFSpeedTest_Gig35_20230104.png
> Type: image/png
> Size: = 379539 bytes
> Desc: not available
> URL:
> = <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/attachments/20230104/= d89867fe/attachment.png>
> -------------- next part = --------------
>
>
> And an Ookla test run just = afterward:
>
> -------------- next part = --------------
> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> = Name: Speedtest_net_Gig35_20230104.png
> Type: image/png
> = Size: 40589 bytes
> Desc: not available
> URL:
> = <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/starlink/attachments/20230104/= d89867fe/attachment-0001.png>
> -------------- next part = --------------
>
>
> They are definitely both in the = ballpark and correspond to other tests run from
> the router = itself or my (wired) MacBook Pro.
>
> Cheers,
> =
> Jonathan
>
>
> > On Jan 4, 2023, at = 12:26 PM, Dave Taht via Rpm
> <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> = wrote:
> >
> > Please try the new, the shiny, the = really wonderful test here:
> > = https://speed.cloudflare.com/
> >
> > I would really = appreciate some independent verification of
> > measurements = using this tool. In my brief experiments it appears - as
> > = all the commercial tools to date - to dramatically understate = the
> > bufferbloat, on my LTE, (and my starlink terminal is = out being
> > hacked^H^H^H^H^H^Hworked on, so I can't measure = that)
> >
> > My test of their test reports 223ms 5G = latency under load , where
> > flent reports over 2seconds. See = comparison attached.
> >
> > My guess is that this = otherwise lovely new tool, like too many,
> > doesn't run for = long enough. Admittedly, most web objects (their
> > target = market) are small, and so long as they remain small and not
> > = heavily pipelined this test is a very good start... but I'm = pretty
> > sure cloudflare is used for bigger uploads and = downloads than that.
> > There's no way to change the test to = run longer either.
> >
> > I'd love to get some = results from other networks (compared as usual to
> > flent), = especially ones with cake on it. I'd love to know if they
> > = measured more minimum rtts that can be obtained with fq_codel or = cake,
> > correctly.
> >
> > Love = Always,
> > The Grinch
> >
> > --
> = > This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would = work:
> >
> = https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665= 607352320-FXtz
> > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
> = >
> = <image.png><tcp_nup-2023-01-04T090937.211620.LTE.flent.gz>____= ___________________________________________
> > Rpm mailing = list
> > Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > = https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm
>
>
> = ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest = Footer
>
> = _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing = list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> = https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>
> =
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Starlink = Digest, Vol 22, Issue 10
> = ****************************************
>
_______________________________________________
Starlink = mailing = list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/li= stinfo/starlink

= --Apple-Mail=_E32A1914-B060-4E44-AC2F-34B073C2F4FD--