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[2603:8000:e200:51fd:b099:eb93:cd8b:ce8f]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l4-20020a170902d34400b001dd63a468c7sm4265655plk.292.2024.03.15.12.54.05 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 15 Mar 2024 12:54:05 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.200.91.1.1\)) From: Spencer Sevilla In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2024 12:53:54 -0700 Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5CA23B3B-B3FB-4749-97BD-05D3A4552453@gmail.com> References: To: Colin_Higbie X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.200.91.1.1) Subject: Re: [Starlink] =?utf-8?q?It=E2=80=99s_the_Latency=2C_FCC?= X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2024 19:54:07 -0000 Your comment about 4k HDR TVs got me thinking about the bandwidth = =E2=80=9Carms race=E2=80=9D between infrastructure and its clients. = It=E2=80=99s a particular pet peeve of mine that as any resource = (bandwidth in this case, but the same can be said for memory) becomes = more plentiful, software engineers respond by wasting it until it=E2=80=99= s scarce enough to require optimization again. Feels like an awkward = kind of malthusian inflation that ends up forcing us to buy = newer/faster/better devices to perform the same basic functions, which = haven=E2=80=99t changed almost at all. I completely agree that no one =E2=80=9Cneeds=E2=80=9D 4K UHDR, but when = we say this I think we generally mean as opposed to a slightly lower = codec, like regular HDR or 1080p. In practice, I=E2=80=99d be willing to = bet that there=E2=80=99s at least one poorly programmed TV out there = that doesn=E2=80=99t downgrade well or at all, so the tradeoff becomes = "4K UHDR or endless stuttering/buffering.=E2=80=9D Under this (totally = unnecessarily forced upon us!) paradigm, 4K UHDR feels a lot more = necessary, or we=E2=80=99ve otherwise arms raced ourselves into a TV = that can=E2=80=99t really stream anything. A technical downgrade from = literally the 1960s. See also: The endless march of =E2=80=9Csmart appliances=E2=80=9D and = TVs/gaming systems that require endless humongous software updates. My = stove requires natural gas and 120VAC, and I like it that way. Other = stoves require=E2=80=A6 how many Mbps to function regularly? Other food = for thought, I wonder how increasing minimum broadband speed = requirements across the country will encourage or discourage this = behavior among network engineers. I sincerely don=E2=80=99t look forward = to a future in which we all require 10Gbps to the house but can=E2=80=99t = do much with it cause it=E2=80=99s all taken up by lightbulb software = updates every evening /rant. > On Mar 15, 2024, at 11:41, Colin_Higbie via Starlink = wrote: >=20 >> I have now been trying to break the common conflation that download = "speed"=20 >> means anything at all for day to day, minute to minute, second to=20 >> second, use, once you crack 10mbit, now, for over 14 years. Am I=20 >> succeeding? I lost the 25/10 battle, and keep pointing at really=20 >> terrible latency under load and wifi weirdnesses for many existing = 100/20 services today. >=20 > While I completely agree that latency has bigger impact on how = responsive the Internet feels to use, I do think that 10Mbit is too low = for some standard applications regardless of latency: with the more = recent availability of 4K and higher streaming, that does require a = higher minimum bandwidth to work at all. One could argue that no one = NEEDS 4K streaming, but many families would view this as an important = part of what they do with their Internet (Starlink makes this reliably = possible at our farmhouse). 4K HDR-supporting TV's are among the most = popular TVs being purchased in the U.S. today. Netflix, Amazon, Max, = Disney and other streaming services provide a substantial portion of 4K = HDR content.=20 >=20 > So, I agree that 25/10 is sufficient, for up to 4k HDR streaming. = 100/20 would provide plenty of bandwidth for multiple concurrent 4K = users or a 1-2 8K streams.=20 >=20 > For me, not claiming any special expertise on market needs, just my = own personal assessment on what typical families will need and care = about: >=20 > Latency: below 50ms under load always feels good except for some = intensive gaming (I don't see any benefit to getting loaded latency = further below ~20ms for typical applications, with an exception for = cloud-based gaming that benefits with lower latency all the way down to = about 5ms for young, really fast players, the rest of us won't be able = to tell the difference) >=20 > Download Bandwidth: 10Mbps good enough if not doing UHD video = streaming >=20 > Download Bandwidth: 25 - 100Mbps if doing UHD video streaming, = depending on # of streams or if wanting to be ready for 8k >=20 > Upload Bandwidth: 10Mbps good enough for quality video conferencing, = higher only needed for multiple concurrent outbound streams >=20 > So, for example (and ignoring upload for this), I would rather have = latency at 50ms (under load) and DL bandwidth of 25Mbps than latency of = 1ms with a max bandwidth of 10Mbps, because the super-low latency = doesn't solve the problem with insufficient bandwidth to watch 4K HDR = content. But, I'd also rather have latency of 20ms with 100Mbps DL, then = latency that exceeds 100ms under load with 1Gbps DL bandwidth. I think = the important thing is to reach "good enough" on both, not just excel at = one while falling short of "good enough" on the other. >=20 > Note that Starlink handles all of this well, including kids watching = YouTube while my wife and I watch 4K UHD Netflix, except the upload = speed occasionally tops at under 3Mbps for me, causing quality = degradation for outbound video calls (or used to, it seems to have = gotten better in recent months =E2=80=93 no problems since sometime in = 2023).=20 >=20 > Cheers, > Colin >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink