From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 163773B29D for ; Thu, 14 Jul 2022 11:28:35 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1657812507; bh=4N7f/rGVHAhQlt1oe8kXojW19sOhU0ddspWHYMmskJs=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:From:To:CC:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=RSrziV0ljM++yTayId9rySw5O3VYc4raIA2exKRU10ebZNmltwbaInsgVp7Nn2vvh 9Q6PQGVypPtF6jaBbC7nqPQ6X41k2Gu507DnvCkrf+aGYxbmgdEUKQ1w35drsQ+1zl 8k3kYhzx04HyYSzW6AAAP8yQ1Zr+y7V2paslzHrA= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([80.187.109.83]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MTRMi-1o6YCt07Ho-00To3g; Thu, 14 Jul 2022 17:28:27 +0200 Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 17:28:23 +0200 From: Sebastian Moeller To: Mike Puchol , Mike Puchol via Starlink , Jared Mauch , Nitinder Mohan CC: Dave Taht via Starlink User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: <0e33c411-d5a7-411f-a80b-ae9d48cdaf2a@Spark> References: <20220713173602.0582c9b3@spidey.rellim.com> <92n4s129-6r15-7q75-7293-qpo73q298srn@ynat.uz> <841ca6dc-d6d3-46ab-87c0-d6bcaa31533b@Spark> <42D3F3C5-C1B3-48EA-8C45-2540ACD787E4@gmx.de> <0C0F0D5F-7CF6-412A-AD1A-392323ADB2FB@gmx.de> <858AB3A2-EDE0-4035-A4FE-EC2313CC3197@puck.nether.net> <0e33c411-d5a7-411f-a80b-ae9d48cdaf2a@Spark> Message-ID: <5CEB3DFB-D47D-45A4-90E8-898842DA104A@gmx.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:xUyEE1BGDC0/bjZhn/PdjCc5he22JrnHJDIy1E2ddY26EOYVBpE XCvIEFF4FFj/OdyeP2pWWFdsSJRdtaRMhN63BzvHAk1260ASUa62DFjvh+CUpYguniFnLI6 HOMor+mSrLKmub4MMXxHcS79IxT9nyeMS9IDjmQ+EvsgvjaFSZOqD+73FXwv2EE1pw20mLs EZsHFBZeneu0jovw4A9Vw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:xsAPpdGe8Bw=:16gl6gFtruP66HvvTEkAvm RdmyRLQAc1U9slvQFN1asiHPXCUcA3fyMsDRR+MVlrIzQjtDNOWA9b8DtCULUQwr/GWRrMoYt mTEjO26GYLpFaQW5FQ7N706rsQOPPjr54l0Bl6ywlj7/qBNfQA8rsbJlHHoqifoDYcrIHnVO3 5QoMF68JtWAil7Ec6wU+uMMJOKRMErr97jLr2D9hxSlwwvgxkAAKGRGtVg8XXmWBnG+U2yfDg duhVyL9x8AhegPvepG65fZJahhdTwq1sKuYzOraGSrc05nm2uPxf45N8kKVFOhjxtkOKQNnl3 EAl2Gs8u+OzrhbHiQw/Jg3K8tK4IxTKspBBl0X5t9YjnlCzaQ/LLr/+g5ymPUs4ZlRnEpPTbC BRJQcBuwUJbHTsXw4hdoZHmH8RrR0/4ZDm/ZHblkqBpYuV6mHJW3fzl7/3v5+PVmCO/0HFRjy jUQ6J9y28CH5OmhaMokWASvpu3SYIXqYH03EV6bb6SBdq0VwAX5vliI0V27vY+Q1FvI+tjFbF Z2/eJSJt7jQ+em6DZNRnQ9mbRHXNC6pWcgMWDG6xjwExd0FT55KPHJhyVnKq5TfeUFKp9zO49 dW7q+RRbzf2AAOBoVgmnKAWGW6GkC35aMhoIGZEm9v8sUTDD1vHWG/zpW3Qmwv9zM8mmfT6SN ZIGeLbCHGaKTk0Y8ZFKY9upi6wutNmzQYTME65nb+VDQhMgZwWpfV3qJ0Xmjs5YLnMmCYg5pK ZDnv4hykAw+pfjBfU2eydBEmKzRfVuQuDoXHWmFXOVAbF9KzB2afOPrfTtNlT046RAj0OfWvT CAkQV+W/6CH+MW2FUvNVj3iWaQgYkYEumfOza2j8wMl8Lw3F+FyWaKIzZcRAi1FLdrZhjJM4z gHjoG0LMuLbVw0OR59GqVbaUjq2dGfSy20IwtrsS/rDko4QfYjZj8fit3UAgl12hiz2JEXZXN 7QxLfrUduqt5gQg5bDU5puTrEfJGqxM1rlzLoHVEeSlpF+23wQxUR2Pe81BhJNd7Xx+yeL0xy bcEQn2LsOVqqtpNqMKCE5JKTrntEbuc19C0khR/q3tCqLWmmwUEVGN8GhA7c8A8Al0Lynpzn5 n2OE8gTYt3sh4X5bto9Q7RzJ7562y2RR3iGvIJg4/6PKUGW+CSlA3SWxw== Subject: Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 15:28:36 -0000 Hi Mike, On 14 July 2022 16:56:21 CEST, Mike Puchol via Starlink wrote: >The handovers are clear from the RF traces,=20 Can you estimate how long a handover takes? And are these linked = somehow to either the 4second or 15second intervals visible in starlink lat= ency traces? Regards Sebastian but they won=E2=80=99t indicate per se what satellite is being used=2E I h= ave a cunning plan for a rotating vertical metal plate which, given the rig= ht calculations, would block 10=C2=B0 of the FOV, which would allow inferen= ce of the satellite in use=2E There are also narrowband uplink signals that= are likely used for channel sounding and basic signaling between terminal = and satellite=2E > >The other interesting observation is that the power spike (~200W for 1-2 = seconds) that happens at boot time, corresponds to a burst of these narrowb= and transmissions on various frequencies at once=2E > >Best, > >Mike >On Jul 14, 2022, 15:33 +0200, Nitinder Mohan , wrote= : >> Hi Jared, >> >> Turns out that SpaceX has deprecated the API calls to get satelliteID a= nd cellID over gRPC so that information is no longer available=2E See=C2=A0= https://github=2Ecom/danopstech/starlink/issues/27 >> >> Too bad since those would have been quite useful to understand performa= nce trends=2E >> >> Thanks and Regards >> >> Nitinder Mohan >> Technical University Munich (TUM) >> https://www=2Enitindermohan=2Ecom/ >> >> From:=C2=A0Nitinder Mohan >> Reply:=C2=A0Nitinder Mohan >> Date:=C2=A014=2E July 2022 at 15:05:42 >> To:=C2=A0Jared Mauch >> Cc:=C2=A0Dave Taht via Starlink , M= ike Puchol >> Subject:=C2=A0 Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea >> >> > Hi Jared, >> > >> > Thanks much for the pointer=2E This seems promising! >> > >> > We have a stationary dish available locally so we can try pulling inf= ormation at our end=2E >> > >> > Thanks and Regards >> > >> > Nitinder Mohan >> > Technical University Munich (TUM) >> > https://www=2Enitindermohan=2Ecom/ >> > >> > From:=C2=A0Jared Mauch >> > Reply:=C2=A0Jared Mauch >> > Date:=C2=A014=2E July 2022 at 14:57:25 >> > To:=C2=A0Nitinder Mohan >> > Cc:=C2=A0Mike Puchol , Dave Taht via Starlink >> > Subject:=C2=A0 Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea >> > >> > > I haven=E2=80=99t poked hard, but it does seem you can get it: >> > > >> > > currentCellId current_cell_id >> > > >> > > Seem to be in the GRPC proto dump from the dish=2E >> > > >> > > https://github=2Ecom/sparky8512/starlink-grpc-tools/blob/main/extra= ct_protoset=2Epy >> > > >> > > This should pull it out, if you want from my (stationary) dish I be= t I can run something to pull/dump the info=2E >> > > >> > > - jared >> > > >> > > > On Jul 14, 2022, at 8:49 AM, Nitinder Mohan via Starlink wrote: >> > > > >> > > > Hi Mike, >> > > > >> > > > Do you happen to have a tool that can extract the current uplink = channel of Starlink and (more importantly) which staellite it is connected = to at any given time? I wanted to track the handovers in Starlink and try t= o find its impact on network performance but cannot seem to get those value= s=2E >> > > > >> > > > Thanks and Regards >> > > > >> > > > Nitinder Mohan >> > > > Technical University Munich (TUM) >> > > > https://www=2Enitindermohan=2Ecom/ >> > > > >> > > > From: Sebastian Moeller via Starlink >> > > > Reply: Sebastian Moeller >> > > > Date: 14=2E July 2022 at 14:35:16 >> > > > To: Mike Puchol >> > > > Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink >> > > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] starlink at sea >> > > > >> > > >> Hi Mike=2E >> > > >> >> > > >> Thanks a lot=2E This is intersting=2E >> > > >> >> > > >> > On Jul 14, 2022, at 14:02, Mike Puchol wr= ote: >> > > >> > >> > > >> > The uplink is an OFDM signal with 128 subcarriers, looking at = the signal in the time domain reveals a frame length corresponding to 14% (= from memory, 1,1 us frame vs 6=2E7 us pause)=2E I have two terminals 1 mete= r apart and they can each achieve 30 Mbps at the same time over the same up= link channel=2E I would expect the satellite to assign a particular set of = slots to a terminal=2E >> > > >> >> > > >> So assuming the 30 Mbps being gross rate and not measured goodpu= t: >> > > >> >> > > >> 30Mbps -> 30 / (1=2E1/(6=2E7+1=2E1)) =3D 212=2E73 Mb/s while act= ively sending, and >> > > >> 1000000=C2=B5s/s / (6=2E7+1=2E1)=C2=B5s =3D 128205=2E128205 slot= s/sec >> > > >> (30 / (1=2E1/(6=2E7+1=2E1))) * 1000^2 / (1000000 / (6=2E7+1=2E1)= ) =3D 1659=2E27 bits/slot 1659=2E27/8 =3D 207=2E41 Bytes/slot >> > > >> >> > > >> with 128 subcarriers that would be approximately an average >> > > >> >> > > >> 1659=2E27/128 =3D 12=2E96 or ~ 13 bit/subcarrier >> > > >> >> > > >> if all carriers are loaded equally (which is unlikely, I expect = some re-arrangement ot bits between subcarriers to account for different le= vels of noise and what not)=2E >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > If there are any OFDM blind analysis experts in the room, shou= t! >> > > >> >> > > >> Please do! >> > > >> Regards >> > > >> Sebastian >> > > >> >> > > >> > >> > > >> > Best, >> > > >> > >> > > >> > Mike >> > > >> > On Jul 14, 2022, 13:33 +0200, Sebastian Moeller , wrote: >> > > >> >> Hi Mike, >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >>> On Jul 14, 2022, at 13:15, Mike Puchol via Starlink wrote: >> > > >> >>> >> > > >> >>> On the multiple terminals, I have verified that the duty cyc= le of a consumer terminal is 14%, thus, you could have 7 terminals on a sin= gle uplink channel with some guard time=2E >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> Could you elaborate how that works=2Ehow the terminals will b= e interleaved in that situation? >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> Regards >> > > >> >> Sebastian >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >>> I have seen 30 Mbps up, so you=E2=80=99d be able to push 210= Mbps in uplink, or a spectral efficiency of about 3=2E4 bps/Hz=2E >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> > > >> _______________________________________________ >> > > >> Starlink mailing list >> > > >> Starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >> > > >> https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/starlink >> > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > Starlink mailing list >> > > > Starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >> > > > https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/starlink >> > > --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E