From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A98B3B2A4 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 2024 15:33:06 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1710617580; x=1711222380; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=2rL1uWr6zQ+/hFj9PJkPizTo5vz6bZ+dabbaIYUb2lI=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References: To; b=qZP3nBXZRKKyUH3JwhoobrxeoszXBA933NAHudDEqu03lAYrWRq09aB3dp+/q3ra aBlzldCI1YWo4uZcMl3rtj3NBS1oI239r/cvXuW0Xtp9XQr72kjqGMabu5yK87L1l nyutIDtITPH2eBqEnxWf3Z+1jIPI67NwW5vSs/mL+2kcC3EXHzFQiROeBMon0Vd/s SIojE7LgPcCXF0JTRuw5tWusfQCALGLR4RUKHTXSq79wLH8kPirZ5JCTNzUJ1DNu9 9C9LEPvWhTrRVZO/crgVITPxIQJEa2nsDdq9MLRYhVihZ6vo84LwwfajbX0eBrfb3 xH0pJzSLWNeGx4a1RQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MIdeR-1rWxBJ31Lp-00Ec65; Sat, 16 Mar 2024 20:33:00 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.500.171.1.1\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2024 20:32:49 +0100 Cc: "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5EDBBC34-2ABF-4C08-8895-4F7472418FD1@gmx.de> References: To: Colin_Higbie X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.500.171.1.1) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:MnK6E1HIPAPozhd+VBtLWXsu2otVcO+9K0nCkXfiAtZHVDzpnuG EOkhgxbTlAyyQ7j1MqfjPnvPqOJMzneQno5y4y+plccO47jkBp5Xb5NpXbGGc6uXjWjeDZB f7HYoWJS32qiz0/pyelLEQShhs9JQ7o307LQm5jVcgXPvQmoIsNATyQau6eGwknLMotoFkJ 1LLQRRT3EMsepZjJJg2Sg== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:2v6lk0mib80=;hinrggvTM0uPDyDWjigJVFwX7ki c5U44lIgpmJ/tnvm5dqPoWazexTt9S8DC4nlwJoSlU+d7HGBWF2BWedWnVqlCnBF4a9JVhiGc Ho8lUuDR1furNFNz1mwZhEKEu3cYwRt/a8OWWayxQQ91G2m1sCkZUqYi2EtymoanPW7N8vX+3 gWVlUwxzn6wAWcj+MUXQrG6IghlvYLCmFUrzCDxWLT47VKc2mVK9kV2yvNCIzSi6rqOuU9tH7 ydaE+ItQK8XxahJ4ajR350jy2GcVqjUfQ9ncUkzECh0cgf34WsYERa77qUP10qbrkx+JK/Lmu ibP9vN7MaidEFu4zDpwCMpJyO8fRZVtu8LDOsbRHHkv8yiE42kkaiUH7r8LU8B2IjqHG3BPrT G6Mq+gxuGGuWVBPJ1okuFJGs+Frq9iPnO5UYsCJmzYbqZVruOgCD/Zk61gHnWyWFbJYXNkdzK ZbJ0YWV/4j8NZJS4BHo0xDmchwoHaUQmmjukzKb41YPW0JYZ/671NLDHzLUDmdPiz7x0TYMSO Kf9xSVaY0aAcicCEulnyqmsGBCsr2tOsXIabKn3no8QdQVqbd6Pljmk7H8nTCDzsmVdn2CGQZ u2i0VmxwmTlM47VkmWpBsVgxC6ehDJvMtpkowlGZ1tTepN+5G0MPf0Rs06Ag8Qma+PacpbK/U Jk0+h9JinTaKobkyeCXnKpl6cdlQRcXC9TNh3HucgFNeydRABpZdoFrhAHlC8j2DyChwVRUzW sqSwfuAd+LrkrEJoYyeC5rirJZOOUQJTBn/45zA7i7CIVU71kgADRdgKahlpgeZKN8Ph3pzmy LyhuOOirrh6A0kpZIby80V15KwFtTnMyKhbmLHDkAqo6U= Subject: Re: [Starlink] =?utf-8?q?It=E2=80=99s_the_Latency=2C_FCC?= X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2024 19:33:06 -0000 Hi Colin, > On 16. Mar 2024, at 20:10, Colin_Higbie via Starlink = wrote: >=20 > Just to be clear: 4K is absolutely a standard in streaming, [SM] Over here the lower priced streaming tiers tend to only offer = 1080p, not 4K, so 4K is certain a standard, but not the standard in = streaming, no? > with that being the most popular TV being sold today. 8K is not and = likely won't be until 80+" TVs become the norm. The few 8K streaming = videos that exist are available primarily as YouTube curiosities, with = virtually no displays on the market that support it yet and none of the = big content providers like Netflix or Disney+ provide 8K streams. >=20 > Virtually all modern streaming programming on Netflix and Disney+ is = 4K HDR. That is the standard to support. >=20 > The objective quality difference to the average human eye between SD = and HD is huge and changes whether you see the shape of a face or the = detailed expression on a face. Completely different viewing experience. = The difference between HD and 4K is significant on today's larger TV = displays (not so visible on the smaller displays that populated living = rooms in prior decades). [SM] This really is a function of size of the pixels and viewing = distance as the human retina has a fixed resolution in degree visual = angle (around 1-2 minute of arc depending on context), it is a simple = exercise in trigonometry to figure out at what distance a given screen = resolution will be coarser or finer than the retina"s resolution... But = this is far less important than one tends to think, we got by with SD = resolution for decades and people still enjoyed the (low pass filtered) = content. > On an OLED TV (not so much on an LCD) the difference between SDR and = HDR is bigger than the difference between HD and 4K. But because HDR = generally comes with 4K and tends not to be used much on HD streams, the = real standards to contrast are HD (in SDR) and 4K in HDR. [SM] Not 100% sure, there is plenty of non HDR 4K material outhere, and = e.g. our apple TVs defaulted to 4K SDR (but that might depend on the TV = they where connected to first). >=20 > The minimum bandwidth needed to reliably provide a 4K HDR stream is = about 15Mbps. Because of the way video compression works, a simpler = scene may get by with less than 10Mbps. A complex scene (fire, falling = confetti like at the end of the Super Bowl) can push this up to near = 20Mbps. Assuming some background activity on a typical network, safest = is to think of 20Mbps as the effective minimum for 4K. Netflix says = 25Mbps to add an extra safety margin. [SM] Netflix recommendation like >=3D 15 Mbps for 4K cover the whole = internet link so are already slightly generous... > True that latency doesn't matter much for streaming. For streaming, = unlike VoIP, video conferencing, and gaming, bandwidth is more = important. [SM] It is fars forwarding, fast reversing and jumping around in the = timeline where latency starts to become immediately perceptible, but = these (at least for me) are not that common.=20 >=20 > VoIP, Video conferencing, and gaming drive low-latency use cases (web = browsing is also affected, but as long as the page starts to appear w/in = about 1s and has mostly completed within about 5s, users don't notice = the lag, which is why even geosync satellite Internet with its several = hundred ms latency can be acceptable for browsing).=20 >=20 > Video conferencing drives high-upload (5Mbps minimum) use cases. >=20 > 4K streaming drives high-download (20Mbps per user or per stream with = some safety and overhead) use cases.=20 >=20 > These are all valid and important overall in architecting needs for an = ISP, but not all will necessarily be important to every user. [SM] Yes, but ISPs will need to do some planning ahead and hence by = necessity need to operate with "average users" that average over all the = differences in individual requirements and use-cases. >=20 > Cheers, > Colin >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Starlink On Behalf Of = starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net > Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2024 1:37 PM > To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > Subject: Starlink Digest, Vol 36, Issue 20 >=20 >> ... >=20 > I think the 4K-latency discussion is a bit difficult, regardless of = how great the codecs are. >=20 > For one, 4K can be considered outdated for those who look forward to = 8K and why not 16K; so we should forget 4K. 8K is delivered from space = already by a japanese provider, but not on IP. So, if we discuss TV = resolutions we should look at these (8K, 16K, and why not 3D 16K for = ever more strength testing). >=20 > Second, 4K etc. are for TV. In TV the latency is rarely if ever an = issue. There are some rare cases where latency is very important in TV = (I could think of betting in sports, time synch of clocks) but they dont = look at such low latency as in our typical visioconference or remote = surgery or group music playing use-cases on Internet starlink. >=20 > So, I dont know how much 4K, 8K, 16K might be imposing any new latency = requirement on starlink. >=20 > Alex >=20 > Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2024 18:21:48 +0100 > From: Alexandre Petrescu > To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > Subject: Re: [Starlink] It=E2=80=99s the Latency, FCC > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8; format=3Dflowed >=20 > I retract the message, sorry, it is true that some teleoperation and = visioconf also use 4K. So the latency is important there too. >=20 > A visioconf with 8K and 3D 16K might need latency reqs too. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink