From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from vsmx001.dclux.xion.oxcs.net (vsmx001.dclux.xion.oxcs.net [185.74.65.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98C103B2A4 for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2022 17:30:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from proxy-1.proxy.oxio.ns.xion.oxcs.net (proxy-1.proxy.oxio.ns.xion.oxcs.net [83.61.18.4]) by mx-out.dclux.xion.oxcs.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id A01F48C0384; Mon, 7 Feb 2022 22:30:01 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dclux.xion.oxcs.net; s=mail1; t=1644273004; bh=WFIvVDJbvP5hWFzzhwKq3mbuKFkSeRGlya22uFbRLn4=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=b1p2jQi/li0GGG/l96ISFTLJaKtEWKKymfy29NwmiGZmvyaUy8wQb9vzLHH7U9ENI WpqylVG1l0qbEdeeGV/6mL4NOLHQf+y+h2QPDv7yDSxEf0fIQaBQYw7KZp+xXMPBIz dEN1ZMFRkjnIEesiMs85DTv7PAWdadX6DccB2bHuJDnmNMfltBeIzY1utPpExWK6n6 n6s94StBVlQ6ZZIeP64AQpa+EDmt+wgd4yjkY13HVG8GeAKVFy32EpcPISbuO010t+ 5Yf+WBYk7ejVq59HM8bwUe5xBnGM8MeyewbQpF/XOy8ydXmAzUVPEUbZA3q8qL8eDF RpFInFIB5x5BQ== Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2022 23:29:54 +0100 From: Mike Puchol To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net, Ulrich Speidel Message-ID: <5d9dab2c-3c20-4d18-aa1d-cc72bf250843@Spark> In-Reply-To: <380541e2-c5fa-b3ff-b28c-8d3d993be416@cs.auckland.ac.nz> References: <0d78acc3-1101-c7d2-c7a6-53158b8c1045@vdr.net> <44b2b090-457b-eb59-a75a-a0bbb0307073@candelatech.com> <431oq9ns-qnpn-n56r-6np6-374rsq317q@ynat.uz> <8ecdc077-1751-4302-a013-fa35b2291a87@Spark> <380541e2-c5fa-b3ff-b28c-8d3d993be416@cs.auckland.ac.nz> X-Readdle-Message-ID: 5d9dab2c-3c20-4d18-aa1d-cc72bf250843@Spark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="62019d68_3a95f874_40b8" X-VadeSecure-Status: LEGIT X-VADE-STATUS: LEGIT Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink for Tonga? X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2022 22:30:05 -0000 --62019d68_3a95f874_40b8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline You are right in your comments, however - Dishy does not currently shift = in azimuth, only in elevation in the North/South axis, in essence, to foc= us its boresight towards the area of the sky where it will see most viabl= e satellites. If you play around with Tonga (=46iji emergency gateway is = live on the site, plus a couple of fixes that returned negative azimuths=21= ), you will see that North/South tilt has no real effect, but if you shif= t azimuth towards =46iji (from Tonga) your candidate satellites increase.= You can also see the effect of 15=C2=BA=C2=A0minimum elevation, which su= ddenly make satellites on NZ gateways available to a Tonga terminal too. As far as placing a gateway in =46iji, it already has a teleport facility= , which will have power and fibre (unless that one has been taken out too= =3F). Check=C2=A0https://goo.gl/maps/6BYXf4R17yys7zNe9 In terms of plain service, it=E2=80=99s true the GSO operators have stepp= ed in, and for actual emergencies, it=E2=80=99s sufficient. Starlink can = start supplementing that with more fibre-like backhaul which would enable= those additional services you mention. Best, Mike On =46eb 7, 2022, 23:23 +0100, Ulrich Speidel , wrote: > Nice tracker, Mike=21 > That said: It's not just a matter of geometry though. Presuming that a = dishy aims itself at whichever portion of the sky it seems most satellite= s (with gateway service), there's another aspect to the elevation angle. = The lower your elevation, the longer the path that the signal has to take= through the atmosphere, and the higher the degree of service disruption = as a result of rain fade, or in Tonga's case, potential ash cloud fading.= In =46iji's case, Starlink also has to find a site with low elevation ta= ke-off to Tonga AND fibre connectivity. Plus they have to get past the re= gulator in a country that's know to regulate heavily and that currently e= xperiences a lot of Covid-related disruption with people in badly connect= ed home office. > Note that Tonga has had emergency service for a while now: Intelsat, SE= S and Kacific are all at present providing service (Kacific at 1 Gbps eve= n). That's plenty for emergency use. > The big sticky point is that mobile Internet isn't working, people have= to go to Tonga Telecom offices for access or wifi. That's an issue becau= se 4 out of 5 households in Tonga rely on remittances from family oversea= s, which are usually sent via Western Union. Moneygram etc., whose apps a= re out of action right now. > And yes, the date line is fun. Pacific countries are known for having s= hifted it back and forth for spurious reasons, which is why it's badly be= nt, and these days I'm still grateful if people have maps online that don= 't end at the date line ;-) > On 8/02/2022 10:36 am, Mike Puchol wrote: > > Placing a gateway at the =46iji teleport results in satellites that c= over Tonga being serviced. However, satellite density, but most important= ly, GSO protection, take out a significant portion of the coverage from t= he satellites. > > > > They would need to lower minimum elevation (now 25=C2=B0 everywhere) = to improve the situation. With things as-is, Tonga would be covered by 1-= 2 satellites which should be enough for emergency service restoration. > > > > You can play around with this on my tracker at https://starink.sx, I = will be adding the temporary gateway in a few minutes. > > > > Please not that the date line causes some weird issues with the map a= nd the algorithms, which I=E2=80=99m still trying to fix. You can thank w= hoever thought moving from -180=C2=B0 to +180=C2=B0 across a line was a g= ood idea. > > > > Best, > > > > Mike > > On =46eb 7, 2022, 22:24 +0100, David Lang , wrote: > > > the dish aimes at where it sees the most satellites, not necessaril= y 53. I took > > > my dish to a campground where there were trees to the north and it = ended up > > > pointing straight up (Los Angeles area) performance was fine. > > > > > > when you power it on, the dish tilts and swivels to point straight = up (no idea > > > what the angle logic is), and after a few min of watching the sky w= ill re-aim > > > itself if/as needed. > > > > > > David Lang > > > > > > On Mon, 7 =46eb 2022, Ben Greear wrote: > > > > > > > Date: Mon, 7 =46eb 2022 13:18:49 -0800 > > > > =46rom: Ben Greear > > > > To: starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > > > Subject: Re: =5BStarlink=5D Starlink for Tonga=3F > > > > > > > > 90 or even much smaller percentage is a lot better than zero. > > > > > > > > I wonder if they can point the dish towards the horizon to pick u= p the sat > > > > where > > > > it can best see the functional downlink. I realize the dish auto-= points > > > > itself > > > > now, but surely engineers that can design that can also design an= 'off' > > > > switch > > > > for that and let their on-the-ground folks do some hacking.... > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Ben > > > > > > > > On 2/7/22 11:05 AM, Christian von der Ropp wrote: > > > > > But in practice the satellites won't be sitting and waiting at = the edge of > > > > this 940km radius. They are moving in and out the radius and the = question is > > > > if > > > > > satellite density is high enough so that once the serving satel= lite loses > > > > its gateway link there's another satellite in the 940km radius wh= ich also > > > > covers > > > > > Tonga. And then this new satellite cannot be within certain ele= vation > > > > angles (=7E60-80=C2=B0 at 0=C2=B0 azimuth) where the geostationar= y arc crosses =46ijian > > > > skies and the > > > > > gateway antennas have to seize emission. My gut feeling is that= > > > > availability in Tonga would be <90% simply because it's too far o= ut at the > > > > edge of a =46ijian > > > > > gateway's range where there will be frequent service interrupti= ons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Am 07.02.2022 um 19:51 schrieb Nathan Owens: > > > > > > The current coverage radius of a gateway/ground station with = a 25 degree > > > > minimum elevation is =7E940km, so nothing in theory. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, =46eb 7, 2022 at 10:50 AM Daniel AJ Sokolov > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope this is not offtopic: Starlink wants to build a ground= station > > > > on > > > > > > =46iji to supply Tonga with internet. > > > > > > > > > > > > The distance between Tonga and =46iji is about 750 km minimum= . That's > > > > > > quite the distance. > > > > > > > > > > > > What does Starlink have to do to make this work=3F > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Daniel > > > > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F > > > > > > Starlink mailing list > > > > > > Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > > > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F > > > > > > Starlink mailing list > > > > > > Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > > > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F > > > > > Starlink mailing list > > > > > Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F > > > Starlink mailing list > > > Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F > > Starlink mailing list > > Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > -- > **************************************************************** > Dr. Ulrich Speidel > > School of Computer Science > > Room 303S.594 (City Campus) > Ph: (+64-9)-373-7599 ext. 85282 > > The University of Auckland > ulrich=40cs.auckland.ac.nz > http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/=7Eulrich/ > **************************************************************** > > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F > Starlink mailing list > Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --62019d68_3a95f874_40b8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
You are right in your comments, however - Dishy doe= s not currently shift in azimuth, only in elevation in the North/South ax= is, in essence, to focus its boresight towards the area of the sky where = it will see most viable satellites. If you play around with Tonga (=46iji= emergency gateway is live on the site, plus a couple of fixes that retur= ned negative azimuths=21), you will see that North/South tilt has no real= effect, but if you shift azimuth towards =46iji (from Tonga) your candid= ate satellites increase. You can also see the effect of 15=C2=BA&=23160;m= inimum elevation, which suddenly make satellites on NZ gateways available= to a Tonga terminal too.

As far as placing a gateway in =46iji, it already has a teleport facility= , which will have power and fibre (unless that one has been taken out too= =3F). Check&=23160;https://goo.gl/maps/6BYXf4R17yys7zNe9

In terms of plain service, it=E2=80=99s true the GSO operators have stepp= ed in, and for actual emergencies, it=E2=80=99s sufficient. Starlink can = start supplementing that with more fibre-like backhaul which would enable= those additional services you mention.

Best,

Mike
On =46eb 7, 2022, 23:23 +0100, Ulri= ch Speidel <ulrich=40cs.auckland.ac.nz>, wrote:

Nice tracker, Mike=21

That said: It's not just a matter of geometry though. Presuming that a= dishy aims itself at whichever portion of the sky it seems most satellit= es (with gateway service), there's another aspect to the elevation angle.= The lower your elevation, the longer the path that the signal has to tak= e through the atmosphere, and the higher the degree of service disruption= as a result of rain fade, or in Tonga's case, potential ash cloud fading= . In =46iji's case, Starlink also has to find a site with low elevation t= ake-off to Tonga AND fibre connectivity. Plus they have to get past the r= egulator in a country that's know to regulate heavily and that currently = experiences a lot of Covid-related disruption with people in badly connec= ted home office.

Note that Tonga has had emergency service for a while now: Intelsat, S= ES and Kacific are all at present providing service (Kacific at 1 Gbps ev= en). That's plenty for emergency use.

The big sticky point is that mobile Internet isn't working, people hav= e to go to Tonga Telecom offices for access or wifi. That's an issue beca= use 4 out of 5 households in Tonga rely on remittances from family overse= as, which are usually sent via Western Union. Moneygram etc., whose apps = are out of action right now.

And yes, the date line is fun. Pacific countries are known for having = shifted it back and forth for spurious reasons, which is why it's badly b= ent, and these days I'm still grateful if people have maps online that do= n't end at the date line ;-)

On 8/02/2022 10:36 am, Mike Puchol wro= te:
Placing a gateway at the =46iji teleport results in= satellites that cover Tonga being serviced. However, satellite density, = but most importantly, GSO protection, take out a significant portion of t= he coverage from the satellites.

They would need to lower minimum elevation (now 25=C2=B0 everywhere) to i= mprove the situation. With things as-is, Tonga would be covered by 1-2 sa= tellites which should be enough for emergency service restoration.

You can play around with this on my tracker at https://starink.sx, I will be a= dding the temporary gateway in a few minutes.

Please not that the date line causes some weird issues with the map and t= he algorithms, which I=E2=80=99m still trying to fix. You can thank whoev= er thought moving from -180=C2=B0 to +180=C2=B0 across a line was a good = idea.

Best,

Mike
On =46eb 7, 2022, 22:24 +0100, Davi= d Lang <david=40lang.hm>, wrote:
the dish aimes at where it sees the most satellites, not necess= arily 53. I took
my dish to a campground where there were trees to the north and it ended = up
pointing straight up (Los Angeles area) performance was fine.

when you power it on, the dish tilts and swivels to point straight up (no= idea
what the angle logic is), and after a few min of watching the sky will re= -aim
itself if/as needed.

David Lang

On Mon, 7 =46eb 2022, Ben Greear wrote:

Date: Mon, 7 =46eb 2022 13:18:49 -0800
=46rom: Ben Greear <greearb=40candelatech.com>
To: starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net
Subject: Re: =5BStarlink=5D Starlink for Tonga=3F

90 or even much smaller percentage is a lot better than zero.

I wonder if they can point the dish towards the horizon to pick up the sa= t
where
it can best see the functional downlink. I realize the dish auto-points itself
now, but surely engineers that can design that can also design an 'off' switch
for that and let their on-the-ground folks do some hacking....

Thanks,
Ben

On 2/7/22 11:05 AM, Christian von der Ropp wrote:
But in practice the satellites won't be sit= ting and waiting at the edge of
this 940km radius. They are moving in and out the radius and the question= is
if
satellite density is high enough so that on= ce the serving satellite loses
its gateway link there's another satellite in the 940km radius which also=
covers
Tonga. And then this new satellite cannot b= e within certain elevation
angles (=7E60-80=C2=B0 at 0=C2=B0 azimuth) where the geostationary arc cr= osses =46ijian
skies and the
gateway antennas have to seize emission. My= gut feeling is that
availability in Tonga would be <90% simply because it's too far out at= the
edge of a =46ijian
gateway's range where there will be frequen= t service interruptions.


Am 07.02.2022 um 19:51 schrieb Nathan Owens:
The current coverage radius of a gateway/gr= ound station with a 25 degree
minimum elevation is =7E940km, so nothing in theory.

On Mon, =46eb 7, 2022 at 10:50 AM Daniel AJ Sokolov <daniel=40= sokolov.eu.org>
wrote:

Hello,

I hope this is not offtopic: Starlink wants to build a ground station
on
=46iji to supply Tonga with internet.
=
The distance between Tonga and =46iji is about 750 km minimum. That's
quite the distance.

What does Starlink have to do to make this work=3F

Cheers
Daniel
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-- =20
****************************************************************
Dr. Ulrich Speidel

School of Computer Science

Room 303S.594 (City Campus)
Ph: (+64-9)-373-7599 ext. 85282

The University of Auckland
ulrich=40cs.auckland.ac.nz =20
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/=7Eulrich/
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