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boundary="------------f0dIdGnzPo0glVg7DJ9OVG5K" Content-Language: en-US Subject: Re: [Starlink] "Interesting set of developments with Starlink. Musk says they will support "international aid orgs" in Gaza, Israel now says they will use "all available means" to stop SpaceX from doing so. X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2023 13:10:52 -0000 --------------f0dIdGnzPo0glVg7DJ9OVG5K Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ham radio (if we're talking shortwave HF here) is easily jammed due to=20 the lack of directionality of the antennas in use (a consequence of the=20 large wavelengths, which are between about 6 and 160 m). That is, your=20 receiver picks up signals from pretty much anywhere with only a slight=20 preference for the preferred direction. This is different for Starlink,=20 whose wavelengths are below 3 cm, allowing for very compact and very=20 directional antennas. Think of jamming as blinding someone who is trying to observe a target=20 that is transmitting light signals to them. If that someone looks at the=20 target with their eyes, it's easy to jam that as long as you can hit the=20 eyes from any direction. If they are looking at the target with=20 binoculars, you have to get in front of the binoculars to have a chance=20 to jam. Amateur radio has been used for humanitarian relief for yonks, and on=20 some occasions also for a bit more than just that, although that's=20 frowned upon. But I don't think anyone would send radio inspectors into=20 Gaza right now, and I'm not sure that the ham operators of the Arab=20 world and elsewhere would necessarily desist from passing on messages of=20 all sorts. On 31/10/2023 1:54 am, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink wrote: > On the ham radio aspects: I thought ham radio use is restricted to those > who would not emit political oppinion, but rather talk about how ham > radio works. > > In such a context, nobody would forbid ham radio. > > Also, it is very easy to jam purposefully, but it is very hard to > identify when one is under purposeful jam (or maybe it does not > propagate because other natural reasons).=C2=A0 As such, it's hard to mak= e > claims about when and what is jammed.=C2=A0 These claims can only come fr= om > those who actually jam.=C2=A0 And then, it is hard to tell whether the > jamming was successful. > > About red cross and churches supporting those in need: it is a good > statement, but not universal.=C2=A0 Both have some stories of not doing s= o, > in particular during WWII. > > For WWII jamming: radio equipment ('biscuits', among others; it's the > equivalent of DISHYs today) were used by Resistants in France. One > could go to prison for that use.=C2=A0 German enemies would jam it at tim= es, > and at other times they'd triangulate the position with goniometers to > find and punhish the emitter. > > More recently, during Cold War, there is so much more to be said about > jamming that an email is not enough :-) > > Alex > > Le 30/10/2023 =C3=A0 06:56, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a =C3=A9crit=C2= =A0: > > > > The main problem as it stands with Gaza would be to get Starlink > > equipment in for the international organisations to use. Coverage > > wouldn't be an issue, but power and bandwidth would be. > > > > It's a pretty dire situation. Palestinian friends of ours have had > > extended family killed, the wife's mother is currently visiting here > > and can't go back obviously - plus her apartment got flattened in her > > absence early on. Then our friend's teenage kids from his previous > > marriage got buried under rubble when their mother's place got > > flattened, and that was just up to last week. I really need to ask him > > what's happened since. They came here because they were sick of Hamas. > > > > On the ham radio side, I helped a bit with band watch for MARS > > (military affiliated amateur radio system) during the first Gulf War > > when the local US garrison (Old Ironsides) got sent from Germany to > > Saudi Arabia. A lot of them found out the hard way that if you have a > > bank account in Germany and you're on deployment, your significant > > other doesn't automatically get access to it like apparently they do > > in the US, and the army didn't exactly think that it was their > > problem, either. Got to listen to a lot of that. First world problems > > compared to Gaza, though. > > > > On 30/10/2023 5:32 pm, Joe Hamelin via Starlink wrote: > >> The US did shut down ham radio during WW2. > >> > >> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:27=E2=80=AFAM Dave Taht via Starlink > >> wrote: > >> > >> I think that the internet should stay up, connecting people to > >> people, > >> through all the conflicts we may ever have. The mails kept running - > >> although censored - all through world war two - the red cross, > >> allowed > >> by all sides, to keep it's relief missions running, the churches > >> (mostly) doing their job to console the weary... > >> > >> Many other orgs, like the ITU, and the IETF, are committed to the > >> continued free exchange of information, no matter what. > >> > >> https://www.itu.int/en/about/Pages/default.aspx=20 > > >> > >> I am happy to see a worldwide ISP committed to the same principles. > >> > >> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:07=E2=80=AFAM the keyboard of geoff goodfell= ow via > >> Starlink wrote: > >> > > >> > =E2=9E=94=E2=9E=94https://twitter.com/dburbach/status/17186383488125= 95660=20 > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com > >> > living as The Truth is True > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Starlink mailing list > >> > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink=20 > > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Oct 30: > >>=20 > https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html=20 > > >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Starlink mailing list > >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink=20 > > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> -- > >> Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474 > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Starlink mailing list > >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink=20 > > >> > > -- > > **************************************************************** > > Dr. Ulrich Speidel > > > > School of Computer Science > > > > Room 303S.594 (City Campus) > > > > The University of Auckland > > u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz > > http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/=20 > > > **************************************************************** > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Starlink mailing list > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink=20 > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink=20 > --=20 **************************************************************** Dr. Ulrich Speidel School of Computer Science Room 303S.594 (City Campus) The University of Auckland u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz =20 http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ **************************************************************** --------------f0dIdGnzPo0glVg7DJ9OVG5K Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ham radio (if we're talking shortwave HF here) is easily jammed due to the lack of directionality of the antennas in use (a consequence of the large wavelengths, which are between about 6 and 160 m). That is, your receiver picks up signals from pretty much anywhere with only a slight preference for the preferred direction. This is different for Starlink, whose wavelengths are below 3 cm, allowing for very compact and very directional antennas.

Think of jamming as blinding someone who is trying to observe a target that is transmitting light signals to them. If that someone looks at the target with their eyes, it's easy to jam that as long as you can hit the eyes from any direction. If they are looking at the target with binoculars, you have to get in front of the binoculars to have a chance to jam.

Amateur radio has been used for humanitarian relief for yonks, and on some occasions also for a bit more than just that, although that's frowned upon. But I don't think anyone would send radio inspectors into Gaza right now, and I'm not sure that the ham operators of the Arab world and elsewhere would necessarily desist from passing on messages of all sorts.

On 31/10/2023 1:54 am, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink wrote:
=20 On the ham radio aspects: I thought ham radio use is restricted to those
who would not emit political oppinion, but rather talk about how ham
radio works.

In such a context, nobody would forbid ham radio.

Also, it is very easy to jam purposefully, but it is very hard to
identify when one is under purposeful jam (or maybe it does not
propagate because other natural reasons).  As such, it's hard to make
claims about when and what is jammed.  These claims can only com= e from
those who actually jam.  And then, it is hard to tell whether th= e
jamming was successful.

About red cross and churches supporting those in need: it is a good
statement, but not universal.  Both have some stories of not doi= ng so,
in particular during WWII.

For WWII jamming: radio equipment ('biscuits', among others; it's the
equivalent of DISHYs today) were used by Resistants in France.  One
could go to prison for that use.  German enemies would jam it at times,
and at other times they'd triangulate the position with goniometers to
find and punhish the emitter.

More recently, during Cold War, there is so much more to be said about
jamming that an email is not enough :-)

Alex

Le 30/10/2023 =C3=A0 06:56, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a =C3=A9crit&= nbsp;:
>
> The main problem as it stands with Gaza would be to get Starlink
> equipment in for the international organisations to use. Coverage
> wouldn't be an issue, but power and bandwidth would be.
>
> It's a pretty dire situation. Palestinian friends of ours have had
> extended family killed, the wife's mother is currently visiting here
> and can't go back obviously - plus her apartment got flattened in her
> absence early on. Then our friend's teenage kids from his previous
> marriage got buried under rubble when their mother's place got
> flattened, and that was just up to last week. I really need to ask him
> what's happened since. They came here because they were sick of Hamas.
>
> On the ham radio side, I helped a bit with band watch for MARS
> (military affiliated amateur radio system) during the first Gulf War
> when the local US garrison (Old Ironsides) got sent from Germany to
> Saudi Arabia. A lot of them found out the hard way that if you have a
> bank account in Germany and you're on deployment, your significant
> other doesn't automatically get access to it like apparently they do
> in the US, and the army didn't exactly think that it was their
> problem, either. Got to listen to a lot of that. First world problems
> compared to Gaza, though.
>
> On 30/10/2023 5:32 pm, Joe Hamelin via Starlink wrote:
>> The US did shut down ham radio during WW2.
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:27=E2=80=AFAM Dave Taht via Starli= nk
>> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> I think that the internet should stay up, connecting people to
>> people,
>> through all the conflicts we may ever have. The mails kept running -
>> although censored - all through world war two - the red cross,
>> allowed
>> by all sides, to keep it's relief missions running, the churches
>> (mostly) doing their job to console the weary...
>>
>> Many other orgs, like the ITU, and the IETF, are committed to the
>> continued free exchange of information, no matter what.
>>
>> https://www.itu.int/en/about/Pages/default.aspx
>>
>> I am happy to see a worldwide ISP committed to the same principles.
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 9:07=E2=80=AFAM the keyboard of geof= f goodfellow via
>> Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> w= rote:
>> >
>> > =E2=9E=94=E2=9E=94https://twitter.com= /dburbach/status/1718638348812595660
>> >
>> > --
>> > Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com
>> > living as The Truth is True
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Starlink mailing list
>> > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starli= nk
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Oct 30:
>> https://netdevconf.info/0x17/= news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html
>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, 360-474-7474
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>
> --
> ****************************************************************
> Dr. Ulrich Speidel
>
> School of Computer Science
>
> Room 303S.594 (City Campus)
>
> The University of Auckland
> u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz
> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
> ****************************************************************
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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--=20
****************************************************************
Dr. Ulrich Speidel

School of Computer Science

Room 303S.594 (City Campus)

The University of Auckland
u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz=20
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
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