From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Authentication-Results: mail.toke.dk; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=; dkim=pass header.d=gmx.de header.i=moeller0@gmx.de; arc=none (Message is not ARC signed); dmarc=pass (Used From Domain Record) header.from=gmx.de policy.dmarc=quarantine Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) by mail.toke.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A7950706917 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2025 07:54:30 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1759125269; x=1759730069; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=ZFJ0lLFyADftXiPb7LWtM/FmHgwfAHDR+fL29+RjEkI=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From: In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id: References:To:cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from: message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=s6Wzt4YKJXmTd7T9uktu/R6I+uv/6QCy8XJZeMCAggKzMuGpt2aQWctiPpYlrAZN W6k5e+Jg2yNY6P9jMdx/AotJpYx8IjYQGeWRyL8piURXUdnddvJ7hI9FVQWT48+SM bmIKeeHR+0bnwOrsuZaQeN1GAotVzFaM1yebX416aHDVxWaiJcD6/WCbt6UYEZJYz h5ZijcK9gl2kIAxrw2nxHDbwkcWqmTxWma1a9Z5DGbrt8Ma+db4XC5rwnlDcKmF03 7l/rwiI3NJ8HwMoCEaRyP5LVQGZe/dHsjHuITHqQBRGFEkHc/lslp6TYGmV7urDj3 XTMfFUjSmI+0o+ic1Q== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from smtpclient.apple ([134.76.241.253]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M9o21-1v03to2Vdt-00D5fp; Mon, 29 Sep 2025 07:54:29 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.700.81\)) From: Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: <6653.1759098417@obiwan.sandelman.ca> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2025 07:54:18 +0200 Cc: starlink Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6312E822-6692-4D0E-A393-D265777C346D@gmx.de> References: <175900400148.1561.6981645218542924150@gauss> <0299A202-8726-4919-AB7B-697325BCC4AB@gmx.de> <6653.1759098417@obiwan.sandelman.ca> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.700.81) X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:9X6G2ttyh5NgvC2EWkQzLb5nxMUe6a3mZ/ghyBlHWfHawJM/EKr 3H2g0DzLorY+mi6/U2nwbrDZ2R9axqlkmINfskuIkz65cOkEZqi+dQOVbNzu2I3OH2xK3TV iJ+mIrWK22h371tQRMwKA05E6WfEsGwjca6pNWBPLp21JlFYUbEc6J4HQO7RbPX5U62GiH9 Tcu+rH3g48eMB6LlbgFYA== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:3gdYtWLvhTk=;mv20n2NX4AoF0pkdb2CRWSllLyf mGnmzOafccrq4ikAknLjBdpjKy08zbh1Ql8oTiSylaeIUHJImyztqOJ7D8DJHhl1F1kKX/Lc7 pKdJgKrGq76dFhyW776kkzsajHIDHGNWdFkSmqjrTjV+DULt8vhGjP/Q7IINSf+YtCDnEBF1m 5Qa9kdtor0zByrj4iQ+/FdhlhzNpr8d6WKHsTf8plkbDOc0DGm5Ys+PkUxuikaNOKnKmvKqp1 oopL+dWfcn/UYZIQQAoK2XfPGwGnrAZvf2QlaqVWFXXmBnCGQOi+1fVszoSPK2iUnJsIqfLcg XjTnAY84VSRUbbO7aXoMqR+xbKsPRKdU5wgmWKoqRPdZFAsQJ2T7bdsHZuXuNUjLpotxNnVh8 48cmsOx9nm0d/IBBAhp74jO3Vab0c+z4bWjrkaWUgois/O9c6LdlXqo6XRPM/jJxVjwV1+AGa YXhrlyZ1dLMF66LAtqe1S2bNJKKYewDt/a3slJq0J+eHj5mr/73FnwrQVZ+0ZgTgL9b8nzLBB 0y4KTBrf+1KHBmJiEAFmoxIDrwZ2AKMEF6Nw2dunRxdMbZ26WcVfCW9KpFIulGenEU72AlqiX 4KqfDtiwcGLOp5XsAAXJYZ8rKqspvcNAKZcLW2S5KBEKcnhjEdxB2lynsO4eVtG4lqa1mMjEi ECGHVD3JXA6901gnpE//4MpC91WlILJQ+fq0yU4FTBsGiicCuLpakYJJ75tLGMNbqBrXklCns KnTUsnvANsnI20tYuFVxzzz77M4gnDJFkKaxUK3xmCAbPmnkwfHTFU8YVYI+TYfHnoYDmjVgP 7nh2w44BwLvZWB8GfcCatWHyDwcVtlvPv15vxxwYBuOqVoKhAAiz95GuJgWidtlAFuAIBI7w+ h5wf0Qm9KHILGkghY9ODiLEhtvxgwxm4ZAlc4mZ6O/OofO2j4FCx24Jss2XY8MMMZP92mRrDd /g5Dq6M/2Vz0wFxhJXQR06zTakO74QUBV6ctTWDVhcFq9jjo2FUogWlTUTH5S1n9+CmcNACtM mew540BGUkSz5zmfK1EvF6pogvE6dTEoE5sK4HevlWMb1IeEhkM8pk4SodL4+py1W9Z9ssIOJ 3Uf4wVq6Hkhb2H2eRT68NGGPFcDgwBMNVTw9458wIgsS2JTvJ5P6QsgZ6CsVf7QPDUA/naaXA FEbC2S/KdOvnLYp1UKEGTyaGOFF+T92gXhbNIN1T31KhX5R5YyWQ9heyUc9MYWMgwq5qJYpGx Nq95NtEAmfJz/LxmaYiB+hbFKSIKM1hNur92XrZ/gIt03anrvq4e9iAuBQW02lXQOg0gFmCec TcXjI+JIOwGeXA20o1snJ46CGAoJ2DYfRmmOd95HMIjdQxQryoqHb8Xe4zukdV77qhJGPNN25 nCmR476WCvoA5z83IarouJ2gL0ERJnRxFLbTih1DgzUdbxmugesT5fHDqm3ki2utFbiLODn/q hC5j8C6AcAknX1Zyc+6ZhcXoWa+VMZjMfzXLGg1niyVRH0jWCKhLS7bz3C0ftATRtfNno5fhQ /8FY0bIO8ee7+qn0lomAKewqFxy5sQs3ScwgyKk/4Bb0tYOrIp9L8GC9WkrN+wofE9Smev2k1 eGWoUHqmEnbzHbQK7qGCI7MBkAHuymTEuOd2QPq0WSZLzUItkuyVne8kffoUPB7xnZulP2rH1 VLnWN4WTxbVTToUmLEznMHNZA+UlDe1z3JKmi/fBRBavSm6I8WBWp1CRl9XCUblmL6oeiBTQJ rpM0m92BEGF6ffKJq0qY3DwLSKw85tvH5//luqsNqaw3kX8wUGJoURPS/jhWllktHHmVNkxWF +Icq030PKVvF00gB44x6Z13dMlk52tpEIdRPQJY5TZIf3Lcz1F3fr8p2BpJH/R+L2+qJydDHL AEJ3A7PL7maOuiE+DcoPzk18XJmXEFU1aMrPGh7foRilM6QTPbmd+iD47wPRZWTGODC+bQqTU tuGie+ED/D27VPT2JIrlnKlL6WchxibPuIqZnSIo/r+77x4ad8QFlIgswCie4S8Fw511Ql0r3 FrObbYc5ms2/zMI34xK5EBRBCUOOAMoZ0HhAW3B12d/kiyuAWnb7YF8blqDmTlWsdaVEtpaMQ y3v78ilXxdpZm8v7F7Xh3DxRM6Zk1jud68fmpQcDmFkKSFNOd9DIY/K6bfJy8xdPQ7KWOj66u pvIpcGD7+2YSHOZxmI9qQX3UqTkOgaZqGV+7RVtgehCfvH+4Cl7Qc+58+JLPl01UFsxFtZ8/m AR0EVcFAG7wAEoJrlCfo3m8ESFMTgOXBx5MXIs7oqUPEbuWEGPspmfzB+5jtDXlp2eOK1ZUHu CoOCvnRf79Qk++zVWJNEy/uJujGgna894IdG4TXdVdftncgNORAjBjTlwCctswgYaAEqWeKEM qGdLnh7NhDDSm4ss9Asb2gL5Su5XcuwRxrcqTCFm98XETY5+9LLQO85CtbSudbnRm3P9wZS8D wdRiO01FYwGV3YK9GM/rOHLC8OlFlCHSKk5C0JR2bIkIuZSgQWGAG9dGIbUFzwGjGn3EcPJty jUw2dsXvrKAeaFBQKkTfK4LymVm4vR2J14uHKPYrwaeUwLMnWom2s8mLCHKK6D3Sp8Lalaqwa WaTFbrq9kz1CW0I92BYQ3YmynQIE4auKrqriAtPQ0tte1rlZ1YJdLTHgoMv28nAynoGbxW4iD VeZNEcNAgenwBhZ4CfSKJOIJQEdohdDgDTUBEDPDHfzAh1uASFC8jxG96iAU7OsZBKTX64S5s i1ihMGnRsDrqMq709GJx+/uBQCKGxFNF7VO0mxUbGD0Khq9U4+x7yhDFpTO48penO9YE50RFb B54hj6s8q1Oe9GE2jBnnq3SWo/jwcoF37i/ULRcDi/rgM8PVMEFJ7YqiFDi6ryjSVr//+Q2Fg pvGMqOghqaP7weHnfKjJhKxQr3FHiuoUkzfCub/3ioYl8SgW0Odggqf4ZfMcjPJSgLAV7ogRG LwPsyqnX/t6xtr7BSSCkg6Pdbzte6Xm0pXGZLb/Qt3YgmpUrX9yjKASTZAlNPpAcRLYRVooiG 8oNQlbegi9K9wwE5K0unY4vCReNtFYEZwpxUIWvibBpkilTI0kmSMj6JBrBPUVSgYRkxW2VOp j+gfdALmjxQ01IwnpAvTb1/mlBRzM3lcwGDaxtIBhYWBPiaDWJlcFqjz36Q/fLCDayLqUKUi4 2jeTz/doZ0WtOuUZPZg6pb6hyumXg0tY2lTo5olqVs/3DVrxizPbI7NFy7sOa487BRMbvIhNv wfZP5GDtYWyHl632WlgaiDPUnpRKAl15snKx2T6ShIJWg7hk70GpYEUu+3WsCzOGhp12IugQX LADXXAOFRYc6SQSko8mJ6IYGWPZJy+wPnrvDL/jasUc2YV4NHJK9Io7By/7Y8OTdt0IU7/Wk8 HmCZtrJE74qlNhPybamTdGEWTj9hcSSXh2uQewsfNQinXaWUznFOlDwviHjys/k4hGTPhmQSh wLpnYICPmwOiwAW0vgxzyWGw65/khZ/SjFqywP4q1cj0D3gi5DT0Oe1sxAAGgGZkeiARzddcT DnCeCP3RDzRI//8CJT5sYtMORJcyF5vswqTB54Wl2iz/Ya7+J5oU824DvKRmIRHe88p1vjXTm 3Je4W2fJNSlGr7H1pDJ+00b0gPogyn8hYUdxyRd3Ta3ZF6mhW2RxATF+b+gzxffRo4OM+AnEO PbRn7fFxZ8G7AsxTkN0leDeaFdPC9KYSos353uCclmRwiiYh9nJqZ9OhKJd6l2GeEarLRSFhh Ir57CTj4qz4YLul7M01vVN2RjekjvvY4GDr7uxjIUEwVqjTadM3iyCEkTMUhYHb8YOkoj11z2 Qbw0by7YLoHLXJD2R/P82WVvYzsB+A1+1UtfcQ4OjXEF5AgFXrIY7PR4lQ3K1XbMXMmPOeIlB fOwIy4FPaYjJ+LBDvyRVX+5p8vqfn88pwVJ+XFL+EgGbnB1YG4WkKMzqCZgeQxGSXbY9FaqRS sogIj2/baK74rjGFjaxGZiAq1XuVZPUm/SM1w0KEcGAjQVNUL6EbKxiEDktxAs9epwQdJ1qJr QoDiVnrp9l9EbA9GYqta2s1qcygCCZKzAsScQasf89k31gms/JfBw6SbGfN0kH1jY8MwzaUbf I4SSKkSfOpPyf4ADbciQZqgW/Cw8cx1tk8UMpi8TtSpljndouHe4RCdNCdtWLp+cV7RZI/0s2 Hb5UXkZnhUH7+iVkaXWZX/au1Gq2F535xRsXavYpmx1oWIIjjfsVsg2yxUkewItyh4gNB/aAG jxSSuXUXI0Ua3FgfQoa3Hm/ppA1dQ3DbfiItRNtEUQCPDkzNoh1UnqgHBlhU0Ja5HrXBc/uM1 dsZfQwt8ru5Onbku5dvDG1N9/iGqkMjM1ag3M5ak+GGOHeW3B38p1+6+KfUUn7uxqWLmfrok3 iVbb5TAfpdqPRIF0bcIyFw+TBld1ktF+iinx8zAY8mTS0Yy9Tz7O64gEM90IOLdYyYtZixrmc lx+jIKXfGpJ8ykLiaZ1i9soPcejQ6mVSxz8gxK3QNUBJVEaYtztGxsslR6RbAtHQ07r+wT5xQ kE9cgwZjsG1RCBuAkeDWJMeJHy89jJIG9ml0eZwIL5zWURY33llBcNQuViLF/N0YxkmpRw0jp +n65Qf6u2hVEQAv9qTClfJviXnWMjH53sCtHUYWfm8/z/Z0dJBoOViUUrXa032822HOu4c/I+ qZd32EMErsbJ4EusId6jDWkxBGLjHNFvLqI0dEXrk+gJrbR0LrjTsX1OqExAqdm8mGYrRLiW0 eSPAKJgdx5m5UIJxQUEcXwUrmpbG/9aLCNSU/X7am46Rp0bADtGQZCNE2CNplaMyfXg60uVy+ 8QbwkTS2YhRVyP3aNUoJpLEoLZo4waO779CA2h/2Zgqv0jo10ZFoNRsVZxI0TIsobk3lqGo2T DOfzxvhwEiaQ7pGuJnh5rTEoUk462hDTKJpXiQPcD4dSkoq69OO0tCPwqUNjprYDqvwLde2A1 fon4h1Gnx98LuT4f2IJTygXrOgaYPVc9ZlM= Message-ID-Hash: 5CFFVVVRCRN2L7WAQZHGQPC5ESMW7TUB X-Message-ID-Hash: 5CFFVVVRCRN2L7WAQZHGQPC5ESMW7TUB X-MailFrom: moeller0@gmx.de X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; loop; banned-address; emergency; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list Subject: [Starlink] Re: Starlink Digest, Vol 53, Issue 14 List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Michael, > On 29. Sep 2025, at 00:26, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 >=20 > Sebastian Moeller via Starlink wrote: >> I fully agree and am quite puzzled to find zero references in the = SCONE >> draft for any experiments, let alone successful ones that demonstrate >> the value SCONE might deliver. >> In my world one starts with such experiments and only writes an >> internet draft if these experiments demonstrated that an idea has = legs >> to stand on. >=20 > I regularly attend the SCONE virtual interim meetings. >=20 > I think that there is more occuring than is being published, That would be IMHO a failure in process... as far as I understood the = IETF process aims at being transparent... > and I think that > the candidate TRONE and TRAIN and (was there a 3rd?) ideas did have = some > spike solutions created. As reader of the current ID I would very much like to know that that = happened and what the outcome was, preferably I would learn all of this = as part of reading the ID. >=20 > but, back to my original question: is there sufficient feedback in = the > *starlink* datapath from downlink'ing Satellite, through ISL, to = Ground > Station about the actual experienced congestion such that either: > a) packets could be dropped before wasting satellite capacity > b) SCONE (or another mark, including L4S, whether you believe it or = not), > could be applied? >=20 > How much does that available bandwidth vary during each of the = 15minute > attachments? I think we are talking about "every 15 seconds" not minutes... There have been some users of cake-autorate on starlink that reported at = least some mild improvements, so I would say something might work, = albeit not SCONE as that solves none of the problems users have on = starlink... Regards Sebastian >=20 >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T = consulting ) > Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20