From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from NAM04-MW2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-mw2nam04on2068.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.101.68]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A3533B2A4 for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2022 13:24:18 -0400 (EDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=Uutn8tc15QnpJ4V9uEZ6yFY/WvDiDqgooCeCATeqc1XjPyJ+6zTqpEiURNr4wxty25AiyDPkyt7RjYny5JOTio1gKCr3ritoZO+monnMRAqoaUVVmgUNn44idtT0QoAm6/u2B445CjsmXdjMkvYgF/Qov6wxJFmQkCGoPNDiPE/94fRitb1LnuHFRtlQkRUeIQGlDlBzqN0i9MQ0u+DVVjei0poz7e+o5rXFYjnXB0i7fqbfaacym7Dfrs9JObkMLfJPcreftLI5wsKKmuebPaFGb2ebXFAeTxQ3v9UTACAg2xGERBTymunNucq70mu6pGWR0eHBifluhEwJ4XEsDw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=9MUfx7uos2ZvwsFB4J2cE3T/f0WzjVUioCCYhZAlM+Q=; b=I7n1za2kbq+Ovirpay1R2Cknkh3XZlnuWVCzBKFEJodfqc3xKJlpqXfcHIIoKZKCbhfSSYT6RaRVr/ywRGKMuwd2TXUSIFo5Xrs2dPP5bsbWzbbfKg2Q89IWbWaiVo5jErBPFSI83PBSohCLSPSEoCj9N4fOR8NpvUv3E/7ojsazzOsiUntybppZ3r8rQ88Xzd4QPOnHNE+kWdRa/E/HYKJWvuu58CErVH+a9vh1wcM06Eo3TF2/8otA2iLsR/cp+hF6jrC1cS8BVytRoTx5koeFzYCwOERkDm4Ls08E96pDf1CAGpQZZAZXBHJdn8aJ1j5oFSehFabsw2ZG8iRN0g== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=alum.mit.edu; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=alum.mit.edu; dkim=pass header.d=alum.mit.edu; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alum.mit.edu; s=selector2; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=9MUfx7uos2ZvwsFB4J2cE3T/f0WzjVUioCCYhZAlM+Q=; b=fa/SzgvLUQFtg13PhrhvsLJARGvnyxJA4HHgMNzYTykr/1aaGdGqQRyuYAfcblwHOdMkXcKffOzzVcWfq1e7BMAGvAsLqJfefNDrRmjLNBRrePD78+25bQ9r+OmX2uq8jCNSX78xaVJ0Ef4O5jnKtOAhptt6Z8fJhmfRLxypzhI= Received: from CO6PR12MB5427.namprd12.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:5:358::13) by DM4PR12MB5087.namprd12.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:5:38a::17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.5676.23; Fri, 30 Sep 2022 17:24:16 +0000 Received: from CO6PR12MB5427.namprd12.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::9033:772f:1339:75f6]) by CO6PR12MB5427.namprd12.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::9033:772f:1339:75f6%4]) with mapi id 15.20.5676.023; Fri, 30 Sep 2022 17:24:15 +0000 From: Eugene Chang To: Michael Richardson CC: Eugene Chang , "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" Thread-Topic: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering Thread-Index: AQHY03P+AHrTaJwNAE2k7hxauw5qM631d1KAgAAHuICAABI6gIAAP/EAgAA4SYCAABZQgIAAAQUAgACuXwCAAR0GAIAAT8wA Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2022 17:24:15 +0000 Message-ID: <63D0EE5D-9CCE-479C-8BDD-B7A8DCB80925@alum.mit.edu> References: <198D364D-DA0E-445A-8E13-FDA24486E30C@ieee.org> <39q83o29-4r63-2qn6-1s46-n97rq66qrpn6@ynat.uz> <34E90BC8-4843-4C03-8A74-B50AB2F22995@ieee.org> <9BBC901E-B98E-4C0D-BEEF-2F6D56AB27A3@gmx.de> <14B0D432-15BA-42AE-9D8D-1DF7E7E50402@ieee.org> <760833.1664541518@dooku> In-Reply-To: <760833.1664541518@dooku> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.1) authentication-results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=alum.mit.edu; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: CO6PR12MB5427:EE_|DM4PR12MB5087:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 252b2b02-232b-458d-b59b-08daa30899a3 x-ld-processed: 3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f,ExtAddr,ExtFwd x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:CO6PR12MB5427.namprd12.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(13230022)(346002)(366004)(136003)(376002)(396003)(39860400002)(199900001)(451199015)(8676002)(4326008)(64756008)(66946007)(66556008)(66476007)(66446008)(86362001)(41300700001)(76116006)(91956017)(40140700001)(38070700005)(83380400001)(2616005)(33656002)(186003)(122000001)(38100700002)(5660300002)(53546011)(99936003)(26005)(6506007)(8936002)(2906002)(75432002)(6512007)(44832011)(71200400001)(6486002)(41320700001)(478600001)(316002)(6916009)(54906003)(786003)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: =?utf-8?B?Z1FCa09VR2Q0SGhIVG1sYWI3S24zeTRGQVY5YVpLOThQUUdqQ0xsbTB5WVY5?= =?utf-8?B?U3VEdXd0eGExcUZKZU9xTm1TQ2xrcTdyWFN3Y2ZKdldLcU9JOEV4K3N1UEVr?= =?utf-8?B?KzlHTWV1cFhYSGRCSnduQlBSVDFPd0U0eTZrbDdPUkNTRXJaTzJMRE8vRVVC?= =?utf-8?B?VEwvTUxqczVQU2kwUEt2OGNwOThHVkk4SWh6OXBQRHJ0QWw0bmw3YURHYy9P?= =?utf-8?B?RTJ5enB1eFVqbUNoQWNPVVRiZldTNndHSWJkVVA4VCtLWWRxUDZGY2ZBWklC?= =?utf-8?B?R2ljNHZHVlBJbGhab3lCaDYxWnJKZ3k2SkRETjRFYlQ0Ni81d0M0QjZEMUVL?= =?utf-8?B?Tmh2V2NiNExlMVEweUh6WXR4QjgrQU1mOFZmK1plZWdrM1dzTkdyTGtqbEl0?= =?utf-8?B?MzJxdThSRkRJb1JTaEY3MG1DYnVBcERDVjJjRyt3bTRFaTBuS05OQ2VRdjdP?= =?utf-8?B?cnZJdUR3Z1MzWmhzTmJBelkwby9NSDdZRjlicjhVdzh2Ulo0dnhUaTVHRzd1?= =?utf-8?B?a1F4blNNNWo4Ym5nZ0l0MTlKYlVMZUxZZVkwdm4wT2hqc2txTFRla0FIa3dt?= =?utf-8?B?MmNjQlNucXVtR2QyYmJiTThubUo2ZFd2S1Y4MEh4OVczYXJwaU9VN2VIcmNy?= =?utf-8?B?OGxqcUxYYzV5d3lOT0xTbEUrdDRHdU9aQXVyTXo4V042L1E5QmtpdzV3bVg3?= =?utf-8?B?ZjF3TlpFend2bHZKbE80MEMrOUFxeHFTeTZISmhGN0Z6ZU9WbjdSVGczT2Vj?= =?utf-8?B?aS9MTE5ocDM0MzFUaGdDcHoxcmJGK3JMWGd2RUFHM3pJUlNJdndmZEMvVDly?= =?utf-8?B?dC9yVk5KbnBFTHRHeVBLSkJ0M25oeXhCQ3RhTHFwME9qdG9DbENKZ3hkU29q?= =?utf-8?B?TkJ0TWZEbFhvZDRZbFBEYjVETzR2ZzFKdW5acjBJM0p0UXNFWTdsSVNsMkpm?= =?utf-8?B?V1d1NkczRWpNSjVGV1ZqWHRMMGt4M0FPWER2cndkV0N4RTZjMXRaQ0hIbkwr?= =?utf-8?B?eHNBT1lVN1B6QnVSdlo1a1RmLy9rSzlURk42S01CcFhReW1tZG1nMmFJcTFK?= =?utf-8?B?bVFoMjFIemhyUk42MGNIaCszMVhZeS9kSGx0RkUvaTl6Ylc5ZmZVTEJFUWc0?= =?utf-8?B?Z0owWVNIYXlhYStaUTJtZWRQWGRPbVNYeU93MlJoRStqUUtGVGNRcWprSFli?= =?utf-8?B?UE90YTVObGd2eFBMZlVIN2RmcDhGYkQ2YzE1anpyRjlaMzRJQjFXYXB5Um5M?= =?utf-8?B?Y3lTMUszdjVkNzloSTZPT3JCUVoyOSsyeUo3TnpwcFErMFhtRStRVVBUczl4?= =?utf-8?B?K2dNQ3M2TzFMKzlQL0ZZdzBrWW9BQ2M0dmJjYmhxTTlpVVZzalNGZlUrRUVJ?= =?utf-8?B?Z3F4Y3pXN2xWYkdyaHh6RmF5eGdPMGcya2plYzhRWVFzdVplU1JoNnhwTkY3?= =?utf-8?B?NXE2QXo5b28vWkVjdy84VHRLUVd3VWYrWkJzY1BkZVkrZ2ZrTTR3bnJ4RmNx?= =?utf-8?B?VFlwK0pQRThmQ09wTStGalBuQjBJZ21BdGdCbkJXUVNKRHVPdmVZOU92WG1H?= =?utf-8?B?N1pUa0xuTTdSdVZZUTVwZHlHaHZhZU9HQUpKMWNBOGMrZU03RmhaWnBaK1Rn?= =?utf-8?B?ZEppOHFpdXJYRU9xQ2phc3I1N044RnlML3U1clNWaW9BVG00MzE1ZFdRSmdU?= =?utf-8?B?QTMxaEFFSkRYNmVsNVZaa0RsOTkvd0xVWXJJaGVDWVJHK0tYRnoxQlJKVGth?= =?utf-8?B?T3lkSUdZWFZZYzNYdGE2YWM3d3NpTTBvSnZuZTZyVEJvOG9lNi9ydzZOd1U5?= =?utf-8?B?WUFEcUZ2c1o2bDNlQnM1V0g4c3hWUjQwbXRueHB0ay9XUFUzQXRMY0NmVTFP?= =?utf-8?B?UHZWL0lVenNsd21hdUJQSlhEWjJQbGxJYk9pSkZRbmw1K0x5NEUxdFg3Y1g2?= =?utf-8?B?dHVrbUQxbEN0c29Ib2Y5cURRRmptelhFRzlHeFFDekZBUm9kTU4yRUVOaGo3?= =?utf-8?B?QkJrVURoc0JhcUhYS1NiTHpjWm5xZ3hCSlE4a2ZQTTc4MVZPRXRJc2xCOG5p?= =?utf-8?B?VGlIK1pIRFUzaTA0MFpDN3lrR2lJemJFMjhONXNaQmcyZjRwUjRUMFJKMlJV?= =?utf-8?B?cWFMbmRuc25KbFZQVkZzR2RidjVKQUdqSGFFWTZ3TktrUUtGc1F6bHgvYzVS?= =?utf-8?B?NHc9PQ==?= Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C0AB5404-0DB2-49B7-85FC-F5E5530153AD"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: alum.mit.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: CO6PR12MB5427.namprd12.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 252b2b02-232b-458d-b59b-08daa30899a3 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 Sep 2022 17:24:15.8899 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: SUbG6QjZnv1tmSYWKK/jmuchYVgCSKgAvVn+0E5KNKpJt3SJgevCHfpADsogEhRkUsUX/EXD+UP3yV2wr4RyZgd00kHZ4WE/RdawecgnUpk= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM4PR12MB5087 Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink "Best Effort" offering X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2022 17:24:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C0AB5404-0DB2-49B7-85FC-F5E5530153AD Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1BA0625E-1A00-4D42-ACBD-1908F02E0EBF" --Apple-Mail=_1BA0625E-1A00-4D42-ACBD-1908F02E0EBF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Ow=E2=80=A6 the implications on no satellite to satellite routing is all = traffic is one-hop. That puts limits on big patches of the Pacific = Basin. (And not a solution for trans-pacific aircraft.) Any clues how far apart are the ground stations? That is a lot of ground = stations. This makes me reconsider (terrestrial) fixed-wireless as an = alternative. Gene ----------------------------------- Eugene Chang eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu +1-781-799-0233 (in Honolulu) > On Sep 30, 2022, at 2:38 AM, Michael Richardson via Starlink = wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part >=20 > Eugene Y Chang via Starlink wrote: >> Hmmmm=E2=80=A6.. is ground station positioning more about geographic = topology >> or managing subscriber density? I suspect it is easier to manage >> subscriber density (and aggregate traffic) by building higher = capacity >> ground stations than by distributing ground stations. >=20 > Until they have satellite to satellite routing, the ground stations = have to > be "near" the users that they serve. >=20 > My understanding from this list is that's why they couldn't easily = help Tongo: it > was all just ocean "nearby" (and why they can help Ukraine) >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_1BA0625E-1A00-4D42-ACBD-1908F02E0EBF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Ow=E2= =80=A6 the implications on no satellite to satellite routing is all = traffic is one-hop. That puts limits on big patches of the Pacific = Basin. (And not a solution for trans-pacific aircraft.)
Any clues how far apart are the ground = stations? That is a lot of ground stations. This makes me reconsider = (terrestrial) fixed-wireless as an alternative.

Gene
-----------------------------------
Eugene Chang
eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu
+1-781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)





On Sep 30, 2022, at 2:38 AM, Michael Richardson via Starlink = <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

Signed PGP part

Eugene Y Chang via Starlink = <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
Hmmmm=E2=80=A6.. is = ground station positioning more about geographic topology
or= managing subscriber density? I suspect it is easier to manage
subscriber density (and aggregate traffic) by building higher = capacity
ground stations than by distributing ground = stations.

Until they have = satellite to satellite routing, the ground stations have to
be "near" the users that they serve.

My understanding from this list is that's why they couldn't = easily help Tongo: it
was all just ocean "nearby" (and why = they can help Ukraine)





= --Apple-Mail=_1BA0625E-1A00-4D42-ACBD-1908F02E0EBF-- --Apple-Mail=_C0AB5404-0DB2-49B7-85FC-F5E5530153AD Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEX3U6jPgaunIn8lSRm16yXSeenNsFAmM3Jj4ACgkQm16yXSee nNtD2BAApePrf9q7bT94ZUV7SthR3U3OMMHGzJM/r6A/qmlf6jHcxhfGGsuTCkMy 3c8wFz2OMXUHOZgoJd80UMeV3O79Koe5i3HsITth6UglQxVoDIrLHQaxBX89zhVJ jegRIFqqkhKMZ/gK6m5cvelpbIB5ybmyoTWEPtKTAsMgsWCxCoofHtiZ0/jjstSL V6zaQ7GwvXAeHGpF3LiOAUP02PSV3WdYAG096JXvOkcA/SjOMw0aUjZuWzXGLQ3A SzXu2tI1LLpk4QOKo1YOqvSN8PBoZzISoq9BofvHqfRKOxE2P3jtFUhn0yIFHyee nkDpqF4LkSg0ftFsabX3DxeO76g8ErxyMdc4srYQwXY7JqnyzFI+15yoRpe1OkRK 94kSVfm0hg3fuMhqf1LjMUImObvtDQKE/gsw6HAMIdmkTU/mdHQ8d1RFcoN4U5w3 XZihkvS9bJcZPYqke8htKzv4t88sHf+/CBkmK39hrO5flXMhGvlTsGVITI7sSU4G OT/tPFLFiYI8o9s8BsrxXANdRKAIGNR1lm9LPoE0Hi9vzF6zlgCku+dg6UT5C6Bh vTUDxlU+T0/asi+fm5Jg9TOIVpKcBgTXL+1CqMRXwayM93BoDh7ikH2eY6qfc/cN 9zlmRrP8oJN2efjfRDSl5k05fkAyxjr/3E9YDmZEcPchGPPDlmo= =SyKd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_C0AB5404-0DB2-49B7-85FC-F5E5530153AD--