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boundary="Apple-Mail=_9BC9F6A8-192F-4B51-859A-B903C86F3098"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: alum.mit.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: CO6PR12MB5427.namprd12.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 02dd7f3c-1e8b-4d78-1df0-08daa251ab88 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 29 Sep 2022 19:34:47.9909 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: bCZfGq0PaGIBvIzWwXAmt+gZLEGAnXnbAhTBwdQieOua/NM1k4vrpBC/fBKi+GBC70MpUqPfk6CvDQmxRZy6Ys3Cv2DPZSFL8SxqO85tByM= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY5PR12MB4179 Subject: Re: [Starlink] It's still the starlink latency... X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2022 19:34:50 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9BC9F6A8-192F-4B51-859A-B903C86F3098 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_02D6F8C2-3815-4041-B02C-296503A89160" --Apple-Mail=_02D6F8C2-3815-4041-B02C-296503A89160 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 It is common for a lot of business apps to be built on a web platform. If you look at the network traffic of the web pages, there are a lot of = packet exchanges for each retrieval and update of a web page. Each of = these exchanges experience the latency. It makes a big difference if the = latency is 20ms vs 100ms. Subjectively, the productivity is dramatically different if the use has = a snappy interaction with the web app vs one with 100-200ms. Remember, = each packet exchange has this latency tax. Quantitatively, we can look at the complexity of each web page and = update. The total delay for each interaction can be computed. Some of = this latency tax is why moving the web app closer to the user with a CDN = helps. That part is under control of the app deployment. The poor user = stuck with high latency will be penalized. The performance penalty is not an old vs young issue. Yes some people = are mentally quicker and sharper. But the latency tax is imposed on a = user and it is likely the lower performance from the latency tax will be = blamed on the user. As the world expands deployment to the underserved, = there is very low awareness that some of these deployments have longer = latency. These new network users will be penalized by the latency. Most = of the world will assume they are slower because of their low digital = literacy. There is another group of people that also pay a high latency tax. = Subscribers in the less wealthy sections of the city. There I see = symptoms of digital redlining, less wealthy sections of the city where = the network is configured to be highly oversubscribed (I say, under = provisioned). These subscribers have a high latency tax. Yeah, we can = blame these subscribers from less wealthy sections for being less = productive because of there personal attitudes. Sorry, this is my latency and digital equity peeve. Gene ----------------------------------- Eugene Chang eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu +1-781-799-0233 (in Honolulu) > On Sep 28, 2022, at 11:10 PM, David Fern=C3=A1ndez via Starlink = wrote: >=20 > I made this video some time ago to illustrate the impact of latency on > what can you achieve during a web browsing session depending on the > latency you have, in this case MEO vs. GEO satellite connection (delay > emulated with netem). >=20 > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DWEl_ud4ME4E >=20 > In the end, the latency is accumulated into a delay and it makes you > take more time to achieve the same. >=20 > This was done in the frame of the ESA MTAILS project: > https://artes.esa.int/projects/mtails >=20 > Off-topic: People poor performance must be first addressed, if not > improved because of a bad attitude, then you lay off, but there is a > whole spectrum of capabilities for people and everybody should be > entitled to contribute as much as they can (and get a reward in > proportion). Otherwise, nobody would employ old people or people with > disabilities, just sharp and smart people in their thirties. Half of > the population starts suffering cognitive decline after the age of > 50... Very cruel. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > David >=20 >> Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2022 19:59:04 +0000 >> From: Eugene Chang >> To: Bruce Perens >> Cc: Eugene Chang , Dave Taht >> , Dave Taht via Starlink >> >> Subject: Re: [Starlink] It's still the starlink latency... >> Message-ID: <07C46DD5-7359-410E-8820-82B319944618@alum.mit.edu> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" >>=20 >> The key issue is most people don=E2=80=99t understand why latency = matters. They >> don=E2=80=99t see it or feel it=E2=80=99s impact. >>=20 >> First, we have to help people see the symptoms of latency and how it = impacts >> something they care about. >> - gamers care but most people may think it is frivolous. >> - musicians care but that is mostly for a hobby. >> - business should care because of productivity but they don=E2=80=99t = know how to >> =E2=80=9Csee=E2=80=9D the impact. >>=20 >> Second, there needs to be a =E2=80=9COMG, I have been seeing the = action of latency >> all this time and never knew it! I was being shafted.=E2=80=9D Once = you have this >> awakening, you can get all the press you want for free. >>=20 >> Most of the time when business apps are developed, =E2=80=9Cwe=E2=80=9D= hide the impact of >> poor performance (aka latency) or they hide from the discussion = because the >> developers don=E2=80=99t have a way to fix the latency. Maybe = businesses don=E2=80=99t care >> because any employees affected are just considered poor performers. = (In bad >> economic times, the poor performers are just laid off.) For = employees, if >> they happen to be at a location with bad latency, they don=E2=80=99t = know that >> latency is hurting them. Unfair but most people don=E2=80=99t know = the issue is >> latency. >>=20 >> Talking and explaining why latency is bad is not as effective as = showing why >> latency is bad. Showing has to be with something that has a person = impact. >>=20 >> Gene >> ----------------------------------- >> Eugene Chang >> eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu >> +1-781-799-0233 (in Honolulu) >>=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --Apple-Mail=_02D6F8C2-3815-4041-B02C-296503A89160 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 It = is common for a lot of business apps to be built on a web platform.
If you look at the network traffic of the web pages, there = are a lot of packet exchanges for each retrieval and update of a web = page. Each of these exchanges experience the latency. It makes a big = difference if the latency is 20ms vs 100ms. 
Subjectively, the productivity is = dramatically different if the use has a snappy interaction with the web = app vs one with 100-200ms. Remember, each packet exchange has this = latency tax.

Quantitatively, we can look at the complexity of each web = page and update. The total delay for each interaction can be computed. = Some of this latency tax is why moving the web app closer to the user = with a CDN helps. That part is under control of the app deployment. The = poor user stuck with high latency will be penalized. 

The performance penalty = is not an old vs young issue. Yes some people are mentally quicker and = sharper. But the latency tax is imposed on a user and it is likely the = lower performance from the latency tax will be blamed on the user. As = the world expands deployment to the underserved, there is very low = awareness that some of these deployments have longer latency. These new = network users will be penalized by the latency. Most of the world will = assume they are slower because of their low digital literacy.

There is another group = of people that also pay a high latency tax. Subscribers in the less = wealthy sections of the city. There I see symptoms of digital redlining, = less wealthy sections of the city where the network is configured to be = highly oversubscribed (I say, under provisioned). These subscribers have = a high latency tax. Yeah, we can blame these subscribers from less = wealthy sections for being less productive because of there personal = attitudes.

Sorry, this is my latency and digital equity peeve.

Gene
-----------------------------------
Eugene Chang
eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu
+1-781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)





On Sep 28, 2022, at 11:10 PM, David Fern=C3=A1ndez via = Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

I = made this video some time ago to illustrate the impact of latency on
what can you achieve during a web browsing session depending = on the
latency you have, in this case MEO vs. GEO = satellite connection (delay
emulated with netem).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DWEl_ud4ME4E

In the end, the latency is accumulated into a = delay and it makes you
take more time to achieve the = same.

This was done in the frame of the ESA = MTAILS project:
https://artes.esa.int/projects/mtails

Off-topic: People poor performance must be = first addressed, if not
improved because of a bad = attitude, then you lay off, but there is a
whole spectrum = of capabilities for people and everybody should be
entitled = to contribute as much as they can (and get a reward in
proportion). Otherwise, nobody would employ old people or = people with
disabilities, just sharp and smart people in = their thirties. Half of
the population starts suffering = cognitive decline after the age of
50... Very cruel.

Regards,

David

Date: = Mon, 26 Sep 2022 19:59:04 +0000
From: Eugene Chang = <eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu>
To: Bruce Perens = <bruce@perens.com>
Cc: Eugene Chang = <eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu>, Dave Taht
= <dave.taht@gmail.com>,  Dave Taht via Starlink
= <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: = [Starlink] It's still the starlink latency...
Message-ID: = <07C46DD5-7359-410E-8820-82B319944618@alum.mit.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"

The key issue is most people don=E2=80=99t understand why = latency matters. They
don=E2=80=99t see it or feel it=E2=80=99= s impact.

First, we have to help people see = the symptoms of latency and how it impacts
something they = care about.
- gamers care but most people may think it is = frivolous.
- musicians care but that is mostly for a = hobby.
- business should care because of productivity but = they don=E2=80=99t know how to
=E2=80=9Csee=E2=80=9D the = impact.

Second, there needs to be a =E2=80=9C= OMG, I have been seeing the action of latency
all this = time and never knew it! I was being shafted.=E2=80=9D Once you have = this
awakening, you can get all the press you want for = free.

Most of the time when business apps = are developed, =E2=80=9Cwe=E2=80=9D hide the impact of
poor = performance (aka latency) or they hide from the discussion because = the
developers don=E2=80=99t have a way to fix the = latency. Maybe businesses don=E2=80=99t care
because any = employees affected are just considered poor performers. (In bad
economic times, the poor performers are just laid off.) For = employees, if
they happen to be at a location with bad = latency, they don=E2=80=99t know that
latency is hurting = them. Unfair but most people don=E2=80=99t know the issue is
latency.

Talking and explaining = why latency is bad is not as effective as showing why
latency is bad. Showing has to be with something that has a = person impact.

Gene
-----------------------------------
Eugene = Chang
eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu
+1-781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)

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