From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bosmailout07.eigbox.net (bosmailout07.eigbox.net [66.96.184.7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 59A3B3B29E for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2023 19:01:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.20.15.8] (helo=bosmailscan08.eigbox.net) by bosmailout07.eigbox.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1pDaAl-00034f-Uh for starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net; Thu, 05 Jan 2023 19:01:23 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alum.mit.edu; s=dkim; h=Sender:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date: Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Cc:To:From:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=Q7M7MPm4s5JxpKlugvVH+p1I/ZxF2mAcJsjbRajbRC8=; b=DkZK7pLFcgYZNLzWQFoYgxiBPj KnmtslieT/bkfGwNpc8+w/9FyVfeva0Hfj3ESQ1H3N877AwoR7/zUwWilkJVs7szbHZ3NQuq89LLM j+24qvgIG2qFp6KEuFkNsVNF20mm0jvb/cwQrnu1QAEQPFxvYcE2zsb5RHpjuwjNMSEa0dXz4gMLf Hl9XJ1fyJz2EVl2gI2sxszdhW9E2N4zXdL2cONXzuqrSDuiTuiOO8ToRLiHzIhDXtaHYvwXUATKf0 apxHS3uwDAtdrkjk/W3VVL3O6vwI6myUhvUr+WXc2ifTley+UqGxDkdj9t7x9u1iuWlgg0Njm7r5r /Ahu59CA==; Received: from [10.115.3.33] (helo=bosimpout13) by bosmailscan08.eigbox.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1pDaAl-0007or-KG for starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net; Thu, 05 Jan 2023 19:01:23 -0500 Received: from bosauthsmtp19.yourhostingaccount.com ([10.20.18.19]) by bosimpout13 with id 5C1L2900C0QhFXN01C1PMG; Thu, 05 Jan 2023 19:01:23 -0500 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=H7JAP9Qi c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=9UqFsMnAB6EOkiq4MrOclQ==:117 a=nIEF4cAZMyOU5h9mcfI6lg==:17 a=RvmDmJFTN0MA:10 a=6ulraYUaiNAA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=kurRqvosAAAA:8 a=02BgHTXZAAAA:8 a=qNp_YjjoAAAA:8 a=9z4KhwH7AAAA:8 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=EG7W4yiQAAAA:8 a=jU4qhlNgAAAA:8 a=4vu3DYkXAAAA:8 a=wFMuz7dQ8IOuC_i2qJUA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=5fscXyx065zfUqA06OcA:9 a=f5kzd4e6s225macG:21 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=kbxRQ_lfPIoQnHsAj2-A:22 a=zM26VYTW1YGJCMSE5WE3:22 a=GPpaJ-c28cifDO-wfJs0:22 a=9x6Z1owHLtSA86P_KKuR:22 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 a=r8UTCfAdEEtSU5LvgirL:22 Received: from c-67-180-86-211.hsd1.ca.comcast.net ([67.180.86.211]:60462 helo=SRA6) by bosauthsmtp19.eigbox.net with esmtpa (Exim) id 1pDaAh-00059O-QB; Thu, 05 Jan 2023 19:01:20 -0500 Reply-To: From: "Dick Roy" To: "'Sebastian Moeller'" Cc: "'Dave Collier-Brown'" , References: <845161E4-474C-44A9-92D4-1702748A3DA1@jonathanfoulkes.com> <82cfa31b-3694-7f6f-3f29-8de77559dd6f@indexexchange.com> <15EBCC5BF2474AAB82C050259229B5FB@SRA6> <12C74FE9-3190-4088-A333-B90DFB8E3277@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <12C74FE9-3190-4088-A333-B90DFB8E3277@gmx.de> Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2023 16:01:15 -0800 Organization: SRA Message-ID: <653AFAEF2C3340F38CE34BEE61AED229@SRA6> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0637_01D9211E.F35E2870" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Adkg+HkcSfmxCWM4SY6Mf+GqoM7yBQAZOe1A X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE X-EN-UserInfo: f809475445fb8041985048e338e1a001:931c98230c6409dcc37fa7e93b490c27 X-EN-AuthUser: dickroy@intellicommunications.com Sender: "Dick Roy" X-EN-OrigIP: 67.180.86.211 X-EN-OrigHost: c-67-180-86-211.hsd1.ca.comcast.net Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] the grinch meets cloudflare's christmas present X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2023 00:01:24 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0637_01D9211E.F35E2870 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Sebastian, =20 See below =85 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Sebastian Moeller [mailto:moeller0@gmx.de]=20 Sent: Thursday, January 5, 2023 3:26 AM To: Dick Roy Cc: Dave Collier-Brown; starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] the grinch meets cloudflare's christmas present =20 Hi RR, =20 =20 > On Jan 5, 2023, at 04:11, Dick Roy via Starlink wrote: >=20 > =20 > =20 > From: Starlink [mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On = Behalf Of Dave Collier-Brown via Starlink > Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2023 6:48 PM > To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] the grinch meets cloudflare's christmas present > =20 > I think using "speed" for "the inverse of delay" is pretty normal = English, if technically erroneous when speaking nerd or physicist. >=20 > [RR] I=92ve not heard of that usage before. The units aren=92t = commensurate either.=20 >=20 > Using it for volume? Arguably more like fraudulent... >=20 > [RR] I don=92t think that was Bob=92s intent. I think =93load = volume=94 was meant to be a metaphor for =93number of bits/bytes=94 being transported (=93by = the semi=94). =20 >=20 > That said, aren=92t users these days educated on =93gigs=94 which they intuitively understand to be Gigabits per second (or Gbps)? Oddly = enough, that is an expression of =93data/information/communication rate=94 in = the appropriate units with the nominal technically correct meaning. =20 =20 [SM] Gigs would have the following confounds if used without a = proper definition: a) base10 or base2^10? b) giga-what? Bit or Byte c) Volume or capacity d) if capacity, minimal, average, or maximal? =20 I note (again, sorry to sound like a broken record) that the national regulatory agency for networks (Bundes-Netzagentur, short BNetzA) in = Germany has some detailed instructions about what information ISPs need to = supply to their potential customers pre-sale (see https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Sachgebiete/Tele= kom munikation/Unternehmen_Institutionen/Anbieterpflichten/Kundenschutz/Trans= par enzma=DFnahmen/Instruction_for_drawing_up_PIS.pdf?__blob=3DpublicationFil= e&v=3D1) where the headlines talk correctly about "data transmission rates" but = in the text they occasionally fall back to "speed". They also state: "Data transmission rates must be given in megabits per second (Mbit/s)." This is both in response to our "speed" discussion, but also one = potential way to clarify b) c) and d) above... given that is official this = probably also answers a) (base10 otherwise the text would be "Data transmission = rates must be given in mebibits per second (Mibit/s).") [RR] My reference to =93gigs=94 was to the ads out nowadays from AT&T = about becoming Gagillionaires (=93Yes, I am Jurgous. =85 We know!=94) that = =93now have gig speed wireless from AT&T=94 so they can play all kinds of VR games. :-) = That said, not sure why BNetzA mandates a particular unit for information = rates, but that=92s their prerogative I guess. Given that the fundamental unit = of information is the answer to a YES/NO question (aka a =93bit=94), it = makes sense to measure information in bits (although trits or any other higher order concept could be used as long as the system accounted for fractions thereof:-)) (and sets of bits (aka bytes or really octets) because of ancient computer arcitectures:-)). Since we have pretty much settled on = the SI second as the accepted unit of time (and multiples thereof e.g. msec, usec, nsec, etc.), it makes sense to measure information flow in = bits/sec or some multiples thereof such as Gbps, Mbps, Kbps, etc. and their byte = (really octet) versions GBps, MBps, KBps, etc.. Not sure why BNetzA mandates = ONLY one of these, but whatever =85 :-) =20 As for capacity, remember capacity is not something that is measured. It = is a fundamental property (an information rate!) of a communication channel which has no other attributes such as minimal, average, or maximal = (unless one is talking about time-varying channels and is wanting to = characterize the capacity of the channel over time, but that=92s another story). As = such, comparing volume and capacity is comparing apples and oranges; one is a = size of something (e.g. number of megabytes) and the other is a rate (e.g. = MBps) so I am not sure what =93Volume or capacity=94 really means. I suspect = the concept you may be looking for is =93achievable rate=94 rather than = =93capacity=94. Achievable rate IS something that is measureable, and varies with load = when channels are shared, etc.. Loosely speaking, achievable rate is always = less than or equal to the capacity of a channel.=20 =20 HNY, =20 RR =20 --Sebastian =20 >=20 > RR >=20 > --dave >=20 > On 1/4/23 18:54, Bruce Perens via Starlink wrote: >> On the other hand, we would like to be comprehensible to normal = users, especially when we want them to press their providers to deal with bufferbloat. Differences like speed and rate would go right over their heads. >> =20 >> On Wed, Jan 4, 2023 at 1:16 PM Ulrich Speidel via Starlink wrote: >>> The use of the term "speed" in communications used to be restricted = to the speed of light (or whatever propagation speed one happened to be = dealing with. Everything else was a "rate". Maybe I'm old-fashioned but I think talking about "speed tests" muddies the waters rather a lot. >>> =20 >>> --=20 >>> ****************************************************************=20 >>> Dr. Ulrich Speidel=20 >>>=20 >>> Department of Computer Science=20 >>>=20 >>> Room 303S.594 >>> Ph: (+64-9)-373-7599 ext. 85282=20 >>>=20 >>> The University of Auckland=20 >>> u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz >>> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ >>> ****************************************************************=20 >>> From: Starlink on behalf of rjmcmahon via Starlink >>> Sent: Thursday, January 5, 2023 9:02 AM >>> To: jf@jonathanfoulkes.com >>> Cc: Cake List ; IETF IPPM WG ; libreqos ; Dave Taht = via Starlink ; Rpm = ; bloat >>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] the grinch meets cloudflare's = christmas present >>> =20 >>> Curious to why people keep calling capacity tests speed tests? A = semi at >>> 55 mph isn't faster than a porsche at 141 mph because its load = volume is >>> larger. >>>=20 >>> Bob >>> > HNY Dave and all the rest, >>> >=20 >>> > Great to see yet another capacity test add latency metrics to the >>> > results. This one looks like a good start. >>> >=20 >>> > Results from my Windstream DOCSIS 3.1 line (3.1 on download only, = up >>> > is 3.0) Gigabit down / 35Mbps up provisioning. Using an IQrouter = Pro >>> > (an i5 x86) with Cake set for 710/31 as this ISP can=92t deliver >>> > reliable low-latency unless you shave a good bit off the targets. = My >>> > local loop is pretty congested. >>> >=20 >>> > Here=92s the latest Cloudflare test: >>> >=20 >>> >=20 >>> >=20 >>> >=20 >>> > And an Ookla test run just afterward: >>> >=20 >>> >=20 >>> >=20 >>> >=20 >>> > They are definitely both in the ballpark and correspond to other = tests >>> > run from the router itself or my (wired) MacBook Pro. >>> >=20 >>> > Cheers, >>> >=20 >>> > Jonathan >>> >=20 >>> >=20 >>> >> On Jan 4, 2023, at 12:26 PM, Dave Taht via Rpm=20 >>> >> wrote: >>> >>=20 >>> >> Please try the new, the shiny, the really wonderful test here: >>> >> https://speed.cloudflare.com/ >>> >>=20 >>> >> I would really appreciate some independent verification of >>> >> measurements using this tool. In my brief experiments it appears = - as >>> >> all the commercial tools to date - to dramatically understate the >>> >> bufferbloat, on my LTE, (and my starlink terminal is out being >>> >> hacked^H^H^H^H^H^Hworked on, so I can't measure that) >>> >>=20 >>> >> My test of their test reports 223ms 5G latency under load , where >>> >> flent reports over 2seconds. See comparison attached. >>> >>=20 >>> >> My guess is that this otherwise lovely new tool, like too many, >>> >> doesn't run for long enough. Admittedly, most web objects (their >>> >> target market) are small, and so long as they remain small and = not >>> >> heavily pipelined this test is a very good start... but I'm = pretty >>> >> sure cloudflare is used for bigger uploads and downloads than = that. >>> >> There's no way to change the test to run longer either. >>> >>=20 >>> >> I'd love to get some results from other networks (compared as = usual to >>> >> flent), especially ones with cake on it. I'd love to know if they >>> >> measured more minimum rtts that can be obtained with fq_codel or cake, >>> >> correctly. >>> >>=20 >>> >> Love Always, >>> >> The Grinch >>> >>=20 >>> >> -- >>> >> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would = work: >>> >> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698136666= 560 7352320-FXtz >>> >> Dave T=E4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >>> >> _______________= ___ _____________________________ >>> >> Rpm mailing list >>> >> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm >>> >=20 >>> >=20 >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Rpm mailing list >>> > Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Starlink mailing list >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Starlink mailing list >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>=20 >> =20 >> --=20 >> Bruce Perens K6BP >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > --=20 > David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify > System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest > dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com | -- Mark Twain > =20 > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, = including any and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only = for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return electronic mail and = delete the message from your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not constitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means, nor does it constitute a = contract offer, a contract amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer. = Contract terms contained in this telecommunication are subject to legal review = and the completion of formal documentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink ------=_NextPart_000_0637_01D9211E.F35E2870 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Sebastian,

 

See below …

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Sebastian Moeller [mailto:moeller0@gmx.de]
Sent: Thursday, January 5, 2023 3:26 AM
To: Dick Roy
Cc: Dave Collier-Brown; starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] the grinch meets cloudflare's christmas = present

 

Hi RR,

 

 

> On Jan 5, 2023, at 04:11, Dick Roy via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> = wrote:

>

>=A0

>=A0

> From: Starlink = [mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf Of Dave = Collier-Brown via Starlink

> Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2023 6:48 = PM

> To: = starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net

> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] the grinch meets cloudflare's christmas present

>=A0

> I think using "speed" for "the inverse of delay" is pretty normal English, if technically erroneous when = speaking nerd or physicist.

>

> [RR] I’ve not heard of that usage before.=A0 The = units aren’t commensurate either.

>

> Using it for volume? Arguably more like = fraudulent...

>

> [RR] I don’t think that was Bob’s intent.=A0 I = think “load volume” was meant to be a metaphor for “number = of bits/bytes” being transported (“by the semi”).=A0 =

>

> That said, aren’t users these days educated on “gigs” which they intuitively understand to be Gigabits per = second (or Gbps)?=A0 Oddly enough, that is an expression of “data/information/communication rate” in the appropriate = units with the nominal technically correct meaning.=A0 =

 

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 [SM] Gigs would have the following confounds if = used without a proper definition:

a) base10 or base2^10?

b) giga-what? Bit or Byte

c) Volume or capacity

d) if capacity, minimal, average, or = maximal?

 

I note (again, sorry to sound like a broken record) that the = national regulatory agency for networks (Bundes-Netzagentur, short BNetzA) in = Germany has some detailed instructions about what information ISPs need to = supply to their potential customers pre-sale (see https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Sachgebiete/Tele= kommunikation/Unternehmen_Institutionen/Anbieterpflichten/Kundenschutz/Tr= ansparenzma=DFnahmen/Instruction_for_drawing_up_PIS.pdf?__blob=3Dpublicat= ionFile&v=3D1) where the headlines talk correctly about "data transmission = rates" but in the text they occasionally fall back to "speed". They = also state: "Data transmission rates must be given in megabits per = second (Mbit/s)."

This is both in response to our "speed" discussion, = but also one potential way to clarify b) c) and d) above... given that is = official this probably also answers a) (base10 otherwise the text would be "Data transmission rates must be given in mebibits per second = (Mibit/s).")

[RR] My reference to “gigs” was to the ads out nowadays from = AT&T about becoming Gagillionaires (“Yes, I am Jurgous. … We = know!”) that “now have gig speed wireless from AT&T” so they can play = all kinds of VR games. J That said, not sure why BNetzA mandates a particular unit for = information rates, but that’s their prerogative I guess. =A0Given that the = fundamental unit of information is the answer to a YES/NO question (aka a = “bit”), it makes sense to measure information in bits (although trits or any = other higher order concept could be used as long as the system accounted for = fractions thereofJ) (and sets of bits (aka bytes = or really octets) because of ancient computer = arcitecturesJ). =A0Since we have pretty much settled on the SI = second as the accepted unit of time (and multiples thereof e.g. msec, usec, nsec, = etc.), it makes sense to measure information flow in bits/sec or some multiples thereof such as Gbps, Mbps, Kbps, etc. and their byte (really octet) = versions GBps, MBps, KBps, etc.. Not sure why BNetzA mandates ONLY one of these, = but whatever … J

 

As for capacity, remember capacity is not something that is measured. It is a = fundamental property (an information rate!) of a communication channel which has no = other attributes such as minimal, average, or maximal (unless one is talking about = time-varying channels and is wanting to characterize the capacity of the channel over = time, but that’s another story).=A0 As such, comparing volume and = capacity is comparing apples and oranges; one is a size of something (e.g. number of = megabytes) and the other is a rate (e.g. MBps) so I am not sure what “Volume = or capacity” really means. I suspect the concept you may be looking = for is “achievable rate” rather than “capacity”. =A0Achievable rate IS = something that is measureable, and varies with load when channels are shared, = etc..=A0 Loosely speaking, achievable rate is always less than or equal to the capacity = of a channel.

 

HNY,

 

RR

 

--Sebastian

 

>

> RR

>

> --dave

>

> On 1/4/23 18:54, Bruce Perens via Starlink = wrote:

>> On the other hand, we would like to be comprehensible = to normal users, especially when we want them to press their providers to = deal with bufferbloat. Differences like speed and rate would go right over = their heads.

>>=A0

>> On Wed, Jan 4, 2023 at 1:16 PM Ulrich Speidel via Starlink = <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

>>> The use of the term "speed" in = communications used to be restricted to the speed of light (or whatever propagation = speed one happened to be dealing with. Everything else was a "rate". = Maybe I'm old-fashioned but I think talking about "speed tests" muddies = the waters rather a lot.

>>>=A0

>>> --

>>> **************************************************************** =

>>> Dr. Ulrich = Speidel

>>>

>>> Department of Computer Science =

>>>

>>> Room 303S.594

>>> Ph: (+64-9)-373-7599 ext. 85282 =

>>>

>>> The University of Auckland =

>>> = u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz

>>> = http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/

>>> **************************************************************** =

>>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of rjmcmahon = via Starlink = <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>

>>> Sent: Thursday, January 5, 2023 9:02 = AM

>>> To: jf@jonathanfoulkes.com = <jf@jonathanfoulkes.com>

>>> Cc: Cake List <cake@lists.bufferbloat.net>; = IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>; libreqos = <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>; Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; Rpm <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net>; bloat = <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>

>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] the grinch meets cloudflare's christmas present

>>>=A0

>>> Curious to why people keep calling capacity tests = speed tests? A semi at

>>> 55 mph isn't faster than a porsche at 141 mph = because its load volume is

>>> larger.

>>>

>>> Bob

>>> > HNY Dave and all the = rest,

>>> >

>>> > Great to see yet another capacity test add = latency metrics to the

>>> > results. This one looks like a good = start.

>>> >

>>> > Results from my Windstream DOCSIS 3.1 line = (3.1 on download only, up

>>> > is 3.0) Gigabit down / 35Mbps up provisioning. = Using an IQrouter Pro

>>> > (an i5 x86) with Cake set for 710/31 as this = ISP can’t deliver

>>> > reliable low-latency unless you shave a good = bit off the targets. My

>>> > local loop is pretty = congested.

>>> >

>>> > Here’s the latest Cloudflare = test:

>>> >

>>> >

>>> >

>>> >

>>> > And an Ookla test run just = afterward:

>>> >

>>> >

>>> >

>>> >

>>> > They are definitely both in the ballpark and correspond to other tests

>>> > run from the router itself or my (wired) = MacBook Pro.

>>> >

>>> > Cheers,

>>> >

>>> > Jonathan

>>> >

>>> >

>>> >> On Jan 4, 2023, at 12:26 PM, Dave Taht via = Rpm

>>> >> <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> = wrote:

>>> >>

>>> >> Please try the new, the shiny, the really wonderful test here:

>>> >> = https://speed.cloudflare.com/

>>> >>

>>> >> I would really appreciate some independent verification of

>>> >> measurements using this tool. In my brief experiments it appears - as

>>> >> all the commercial tools to date - to dramatically understate the

>>> >> bufferbloat, on my LTE, (and my starlink = terminal is out being

>>> >> hacked^H^H^H^H^H^Hworked on, so I can't = measure that)

>>> >>

>>> >> My test of their test reports 223ms 5G = latency under load , where

>>> >> flent reports over 2seconds. See = comparison attached.

>>> >>

>>> >> My guess is that this otherwise lovely new = tool, like too many,

>>> >> doesn't run for long enough. Admittedly, = most web objects (their

>>> >> target market) are small, and so long as = they remain small and not

>>> >> heavily pipelined this test is a very good = start... but I'm pretty

>>> >> sure cloudflare is used for bigger uploads = and downloads than that.

>>> >> There's no way to change the test to run = longer either.

>>> >>

>>> >> I'd love to get some results from other = networks (compared as usual to

>>> >> flent), especially ones with cake on it. = I'd love to know if they

>>> >> measured more minimum rtts that can be = obtained with fq_codel or cake,

>>> >> correctly.

>>> >>

>>> >> Love Always,

>>> >> The Grinch

>>> >>

>>> >> --

>>> >> This song goes out to all the folk that = thought Stadia would work:

>>> >> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698136666= 5607352320-FXtz

>>> >> Dave T=E4ht CEO, TekLibre, = LLC

>>> >> <image.png><tcp_nup-2023-01-04T090937.211620.LTE.flent.gz>___= ____________________________________________

=

>>> >> Rpm mailing = list

>>> >> = Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net

>>> >> = https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm

>>> >

>>> >

>>> > = _______________________________________________<= /p>

>>> > Rpm mailing list

>>> > = Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net

>>> > = https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm

>>> = _______________________________________________<= /p>

>>> Starlink mailing list

>>> = Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net

>>> = https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<= /p>

>>> = _______________________________________________<= /p>

>>> Starlink mailing list

>>> = Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net

>>> = https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<= /p>

>>

>>=A0

>> --

>> Bruce Perens K6BP

>>

>>

>>

>> = _______________________________________________<= /p>

>> Starlink mailing list

>> = Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net

>> = https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<= /p>

> --

> David Collier-Brown,=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 | Always do = right. This will gratify

> System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the = rest

> dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com = |=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 -- Mark = Twain

>=A0

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