From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 739E63B2A4 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 2023 10:31:34 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1693492292; x=1694097092; i=moeller0@gmx.de; bh=9ODitqqBm/RuqRsiiTG2ouXQVlrND/knTzQPxCS5LQ4=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Date:From:To:CC:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=aHTaZ14ZwHMv+CsrvSc3/EvUIpK2/dhONPxRtrd/mwd+stdjFnODNF8vUWntVTeAXRRA2ku 9hnNlZf7ZPUdDBU0BxbAEX6O2Cx4oosUvQ6bu8RL+zKBAPII8WzO9u259E8nrnfr4ZpRXB0eV l3bvdo2Kp5VvwdIK/JJ1Km8oGihGhYgiAYe6gRwKqi7Y25fMVvLLs+OoqZH9dlBFFnTj1ozwJ utjXgofD27uI7GLQzr8BygSjSXuukmkRrnNwlV/LoJIAI7fawynvojfxtc8fO2NgmUjlxgb3M Gk1RXgbUIZWSIjawGYNyqzjYYTI+7btgerKPiNfz4RHqnktmlPeQ== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([95.112.174.206]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MxlzC-1pkKRZ3mHO-00zJDu; Thu, 31 Aug 2023 16:31:32 +0200 Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2023 16:31:26 +0200 From: Sebastian Moeller To: Dave Taht CC: Dave Taht via Starlink User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <66C047F7-7BE3-4F87-9BD3-6DB39F77E97E@gmx.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:m8sQcE46YHTHoJfrjsGvXc44z31eTGAokNm/sDD7xDaW2Pw/UkF sf/hyxzxQSfHPwBk002MDQWkiqTd0kDBPp31PZcOmqx2o10z2IejiO/bxm89mlPiolVmbhQ xykc/iR5mT9JHjRjGsphFbX+zMWxqgWidYTAXVGklhxEuoqDJcbkJp3vi5Qz1nef6Ikw13r A+pstZnOYvK0ReXeQmrLg== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:tCEy6wVR4NM=;PT4/h6IGRXuZlFOzZ4ESbTQizyq rirsFm9KMBEJpUF5gZmjsm0xJDhbbDMehYlvxfK0kd0jWXLZpN7GFmeeMGfBvu4k8S/vOAF9K qRyBQHvrVvQL+4DpS0XoOHRm9Ee4JINCnVaMiYMx8XqKeYJ6UBsbccMfE7ARhGYVS6k9CZo7s 1uksJPw/yFUBT66pXpIM3FTu33KkajcAMU+BpmoTOLGJ7lEFMfnJValGZWCJ/X46803ALL87N 8lmWMRjAJjzOlvoEpK66Nrb6M0vAKWZZkxu9a9RYy0qwD3jrkNB0usidAcDeVv1nan1j6djHG Z9ZgPYjYXYX+87ZXBg8+RoZnBQmgD+KHdSFjfcDcQygATQlnlOlm8cEwLeKqtBy4CmAgrKe+K SJVq/RxTpj4d5nBPc1PgKYQFScNfzCaY+Luwxo2oSAJr447Y8s92shdHSI2R1ntSGIFJ6Zkgv vEW0vI3XFsjiEw+WOsiaUXawOjQhpsMv1aqOYKulFv4CVI6YXoXBlyUbnz/CNVC8SOYHldCjB P3OS+VTT/LaeUzzKwXJevtUfBtsoakbn7edJMtRoSZgnlZAkfj+kW4QylrB4Lgnt/PkLxNTqt 6caqAQscY/TovgnlmpXLzfcurF+fge0IDr/S6SjzHU28w1/d+ISBJmACAu63o2+WKm3S6H+Lr 31X8Wk1+F76nyWtyuGyGaSuo8NC0e2ZPUbCBtWHjs28PTF17GIijCFOZ3ujx/VytAiSsYagCc trqJ1R2gBjlPBBDF+BrSXYiFcX5FNvmbdgn32fkSCX/Snp+CDzMMC9C/B37NwUQPsanshlQkk BLd1KtoBqsgvBNODbgzXTdS2Tm+IZQBe3lm7+1r6uxWX6wWMQrRRqf0ZlrdS/gQQ0GcAOa1vm 7TlH9FBWNQgdwEMpcLqfsaW715rVWqyl/vWzhEbNyhrQh5S30jXRWsyPO3D0JMHyTpVBXGoyw d90XwmzyUyHOyt+awpI7Mw0Hnng= Subject: Re: [Starlink] a puzzling starlink uplink trace X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2023 14:31:34 -0000 Hi Dave, On 31 August 2023 15:42:45 CEST, Dave Taht wrote= : >On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 12:43=E2=80=AFPM Sebastian Moeller wrote: >> >> Hi Dave, >> >> >> you probably know already, but >> mtr -ezb4 www=2Eheise=2Ede >> will report compliant MPLS segments: > >Despite any reputation for omniscience I may have acquired,=20 ;) I was not sure which level of MPLS information you are after=2E=2E=2E > I was an >ipv6 bigot in the era when MPLS was being specced, and somewhat >willfully ignored it, It probably scratches an itch, but ine I do not have in my home network, s= o I am pretty ignorant of it as well, short of the little treatment it got = in the nanog steenbergen roisman traceroute explainer over here: https://archive=2Enanog=2Eorg/sites/default/files/10_Roisman_Traceroute=2E= pdf > and did not know traceroute and mtr had gained >the ability to see it=2E I think this is not so much seeing it and more aking politely for the MPLS= segments to report faithfully=2E I have no idea how 'true' the reported ho= ps are, but I also have no reason to doubt them=2E=2E=2E > >It would be kind of neat (for business services at least), if starlink >offered MPLS to the router=2E It would make some things easier=2E Nobody >to this day seems to know what the dishy to ground station actually >is, although a lot of folk seem to be speculating it is mpls, my bet >is still something custom that has a destination and encrypted >payload=2E=2E=2E=2E Encryption certainly seems in order given that the whole transmissions are= pretty much out in the open=2E=2E=2E (I would guess to passively snoop dow= nload traffic an adversary would need to be close enough to the dishy and f= or snooping uploads close enough to the respective base station makes sense= , with close enough being within a few miles? with similar view to the sky)= =2E > > > >> = My traceroute [v0=2E95] >> 123-1234567=2Elocal (192=2E168=2E42=2E229) -> www=2Eheise=2Ede (193=2E9= 9=2E144=2E85) = 2023-08-30T21:39:48+0200 >> Keys: Help Display mode Restart statistics Order of fields qui= t >> = = Packets Pings >> Host = = Loss% Snt Last Avg Best Wrst StDev >> 1=2E AS??? 192=2E168=2E42=2E1 (192=2E168=2E42=2E1) = = 0=2E0% 1067 0=2E9 0=2E6 0=2E5 9=2E1 = 0=2E4 >> 2=2E AS6805 loopback1=2E0003=2Eacln=2E06=2Eham=2Ede=2Enet=2Etelefoni= ca=2Ede (62=2E52=2E201=2E200) = 0=2E0% 1067 12=2E3 22=2E5 9=2E9= 172=2E7 17=2E5 >> 3=2E AS6805 bundle-ether10=2E0002=2Edbrx=2E06=2Eham=2Ede=2Enet=2Etel= efonica=2Ede (62=2E53=2E2=2E98) = 0=2E7% 1067 12=2E4 12=2E0 10=2E3= 16=2E5 0=2E7 >> 4=2E AS6805 ae7-0=2E0001=2Ecorx=2E06=2Eham=2Ede=2Enet=2Etelefonica= =2Ede (62=2E53=2E15=2E0) = 0=2E0% 1067 18=2E7 19=2E2 17= =2E2 48=2E9 2=2E4 >> [MPLS: Lbl 16624 TC 0 S 1 TTL 1] >> 5=2E AS6805 ae6-0=2E0002=2Ecorx=2E02=2Efra=2Ede=2Enet=2Etelefonica= =2Ede (62=2E53=2E0=2E49) = 0=2E0% 1067 41=2E6 19=2E6 17= =2E2 51=2E6 3=2E9 >> [MPLS: Lbl 16624 TC 0 S 1 TTL 1] >> 6=2E AS6805 bundle-ether2=2E0001=2Ecord=2E01=2Eoff=2Ede=2Enet=2Etele= fonica=2Ede (62=2E53=2E0=2E199) = 0=2E0% 1067 19=2E0 19=2E3 17=2E7= 87=2E1 2=2E2 >> [MPLS: Lbl 16624 TC 0 S 1 TTL 1] >> 7=2E AS6805 bundle-ether1=2E0002=2Ecorp=2E01=2Eoff=2Ede=2Enet=2Etele= fonica=2Ede (62=2E53=2E28=2E171) = 0=2E0% 1067 22=2E9 19=2E2 17=2E5= 29=2E7 0=2E9 >> 8=2E AS??? ipv4=2Ede-cix=2Efra=2Ede=2Eas12306=2Eplusline=2Enet (80= =2E81=2E192=2E132) = 0=2E0% 1066 18=2E5 19=2E7 18=2E2 9= 3=2E0 2=2E5 >> 9=2E AS12306 82=2E98=2E102=2E71 (82=2E98=2E102=2E71) = = 0=2E0% 1066 19=2E6 19=2E4 17=2E7 69=2E5 = 1=2E7 >> [MPLS: Lbl 24002 TC 0 S 1 TTL 1] >> 10=2E AS12306 82=2E98=2E102=2E23 (82=2E98=2E102=2E23) = = 0=2E0% 1066 17=2E8 19=2E8 17=2E4 197=2E7 = 9=2E9 >> 11=2E AS12306 212=2E19=2E61=2E13 (212=2E19=2E61=2E13) = = 0=2E0% 1066 19=2E8 19=2E6 17=2E5 155=2E7 = 6=2E1 >> 12=2E AS12306 www=2Eheise=2Ede (193=2E99=2E144=2E85) = = 0=2E1% 1066 19=2E6 19=2E1 17=2E6 63=2E7 1= =2E5 >> >> Not that these do not already stick out as hops at different locations = (here Hamburg (ham), Frankfurt (fra) and Offenbach)) all with more or less = identical distance-independent RTTs=2E >> >> Other than that quite intriguing puzzle, I wonder whether we could teac= h flent to run a bidirectional traceroute/mtr as part of its measurements= =2E=2E? >> >> Regards >> Sebastian >> >> >> > On Aug 30, 2023, at 20:07, Dave Taht via Starlink wrote: >> > >> > In the attached 5 minute plot from a few days ago (I can supply the >> > flent=2Egz files if anyone wants them), I see a puzzling spike at T+1= 55s >> > to nearly 90ms of baseline latency, then down to 20ms=2E No degree of >> > orbital mechanics can apply to this change, even factoring in an over >> > the horizon connection, routing packets on the ground through LA to >> > seattle, and back, or using a couple ISLs, can make this add up for >> > me=2E A combination of all that, kind of does make sense=2E >> > >> > The trace otherwise shows the sawtooth pattern of a single tcp flow , >> > a loss (sometimes catastrophic) at every downward bandwidth change=2E >> > >> > An assumption I have long been making is the latency staircase effect >> > (see T+170) forward is achieving the best encoding rate at the >> > distance then seen, the distance growing and the encoding rate fallin= g >> > in distinct steps, with a fixed amount of buffering, until finally >> > that sat starts falling out of range, and it choses another at T+240s= =2E >> > >> > But jeeze, a 70ms baseline latency swing? What gives? I imagine >> > somehow correlating this with a mpls enabled traceroute might begin t= o >> > make some sense of it, correlated by orbital positions=2E=2E=2E=2E >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Oct 30: https://netdevconf=2Einfo/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music= -bof=2Ehtml >> > Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos >> > ___________________________________________= ____ >> > Starlink mailing list >> > Starlink@lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet >> > https://lists=2Ebufferbloat=2Enet/listinfo/starlink >> > > --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E