From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp101.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (smtp101.iad3a.emailsrvr.com [173.203.187.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6CE33CB55 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 15:02:31 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=evslin.com; s=20220608-p431o605; t=1680116551; bh=2OEc1VZxs0fYGyB++zBKMo50YXdlr4s0Xk/Lv4nK33A=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:From; b=nZlcJsqrZBcaAyy9BG7uxCZVTmLGuSxV9a1iQek54LTH8a8a0+Bh6hTWOckimh9Xr BvaCG5D5yXWC55M2mU/LXiHNUGYFaC8eoBF3gwS6I3JXLVkrR+WaS5gV2EaRgEjAAg puDwUXDkMFTnTS6KFjo5NbKcwmKXxR/kj+HrjBM0= X-Auth-ID: tom@evslin.com Received: by smtp13.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (Authenticated sender: tom-AT-evslin.com) with ESMTPSA id C0BB74319; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 15:02:30 -0400 (EDT) From: To: "'Rich Brown'" , "'David Lang'" Cc: "'Dave Taht via Starlink'" , "'dan'" , "'Dave Collier-Brown'" , "'libreqos'" , "'bloat'" References: <1d6c10c9a692bb3f2869fb1b40fa449a@rjmcmahon.com> <8301258b8fffa18bd14279bff043dd03@rjmcmahon.com> <43bcbc338aecb44a1bef49489ab6f9c8@rjmcmahon.com> <60e70b637df76234639780ab08f25d82@rjmcmahon.com> <9edd011a1a6615470b34e0837896a15f@rjmcmahon.com> <6EB62755-EF23-44BA-B2FF-66FAC708653D@gmx.de> <6qnq34os-3qss-s4q7-s286-2s49q890q920@ynat.uz> <27aea5070eeb1b1535f3e75489295feb@rjmcmahon.com> <08526EAC-7EA3-4BFA-A231-B2935E09C8AC@gmx.de> <716ECAAD-E2EE-4647-9E73-D60BF8BF9C1E@searls.com> <829A9509-0B4D-438E -BB59-1592C0B2 7C98@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <829A9509-0B4D-438E-BB59-1592C0B27C98@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 15:02:30 -0400 Message-ID: <6aeb401d96271$038d5200$0aa7f600$@evslin.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_6AEB5_01D9624F.7C7C2730" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQH1VNBFu+IkATfrmMGkecgZtfrohgHdESucAt3GJrQCIGJqwgLLerzrAo+fxD0CaZclcAGjFf9iAmv2zRABijlyuAGxxl10Af01lbIBvOhlegIzkP5mAVuGQFMBcDd4UQFqxJRtApkuU+YCp1CIy62vud2A Content-Language: en-us X-Classification-ID: 381b4720-5121-4490-917c-4ce0a868e596-1-1 Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] Enabling a production model X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 19:02:31 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_6AEB5_01D9624F.7C7C2730 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What's missing in this math is how much cheaper (and better) the installation is if you displace or hang from the existing copper usually in great position below the electricity and almost no makeready in this case. Problem is getting rid of the almost but not quite unused copper plus ownership problems. I was on an FCC TAC which tried to plan for this 14 years ago but came to nothing. Also could be burying fiber and electric with road repaving which is way over-funded to increase reliability and decrease ongoing maintenance costs. From: Starlink On Behalf Of Rich Brown via Starlink Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 1:46 PM To: David Lang Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink ; dan ; Dave Collier-Brown ; libreqos ; bloat Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] Enabling a production model On Mar 29, 2023, at 1:13 PM, David Lang via Starlink > wrote: The problem is that laying cable (or provisioning wifi access to cover the area) is expensive, and if you try to have multiple different companies doing it, they each need a minimum density of users to make it worth their while. Yes, this stuff is expensive, Here is reasonably current order-of-magnitude cost breakdown for a rural NH town nearby: 1) $55,000 per road-mile to design the system, get licenses to install on the utility poles, "make ready" (to check that the poles are ready for new facilities) and to hang the fiber on the pole. Installing coax would save $5K to $8K per mile. 2) $2,000 to $4,000 per premise to install the drop from the utility pole to the building, bring the fiber into the building and install the router. 3) Pole rental (in NH) is about $10/pole/year. Divide miles of road by 200 feet between poles to get an estimate of the number of poles. So density of customers is critical for the business case. That's why there are so many monopoly providers - it's costly to overbuild an already served area. ------=_NextPart_000_6AEB5_01D9624F.7C7C2730 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

What’s missing in this = math is how much cheaper (and better) the installation is if you = displace or hang from the existing copper usually in great position = below the electricity and almost no makeready in this case. Problem is = getting rid of the almost but not quite unused copper plus ownership = problems. I was on an FCC TAC which tried to plan for this 14 years ago = but came to nothing.

 

Also could = be burying fiber and electric with road repaving which is way = over-funded to increase reliability and decrease ongoing maintenance = costs.

 

From: Starlink = <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of Rich = Brown via Starlink
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 1:46 = PM
To: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
Cc: Dave = Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; dan = <dandenson@gmail.com>; Dave Collier-Brown = <dave.collier-Brown@indexexchange.com>; libreqos = <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>; bloat = <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: [Starlink] = [Bloat] [LibreQoS] Enabling a production = model

 



On Mar 29, 2023, at 1:13 PM, David Lang via Starlink = <starlink@lists.bufferbloat= .net> wrote:

 

The problem = is that laying cable (or provisioning wifi access to cover the area) is = expensive, and if you try to have multiple different companies doing it, = they each need a minimum density of users to make it worth their = while.

 

Yes, = this stuff is expensive, Here is reasonably current order-of-magnitude = cost breakdown for a rural NH town nearby:

 

1) $55,000 per road-mile to design the system, get = licenses to install on the utility poles, "make ready" (to = check that the poles are ready for new facilities) and to hang the fiber = on the pole. Installing coax would save $5K to $8K per = mile.

 

2) $2,000 to $4,000 per premise to install the drop = from the utility pole to the building, bring the fiber into the building = and install the router. 

 

3) Pole rental (in NH) is about $10/pole/year. Divide = miles of road by 200 feet between poles to get an estimate of the number = of poles.

 

So density of customers is critical for the business = case. That's why there are so many monopoly providers - it's costly to = overbuild an already served area.

 

------=_NextPart_000_6AEB5_01D9624F.7C7C2730--