From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp67.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (smtp67.iad3a.emailsrvr.com [173.203.187.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E126F3CB67 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 15:31:17 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=evslin.com; s=20220608-p431o605; t=1680118277; bh=BjQ/OB3rhfYM/OsfByH+TuzRKLai55iiFXsXVEuHbS4=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:From; b=GmtuJWPjAvculQkVPNiZw/GrjGkxbajzTHNROWYNsUefQuiTIsf7KMMdmkgl0IPu+ sgf2BhOY08OAjPxMOwiULhKYR8zeTpEgtba3sV7DrkTCt7doadwdeGGkkGSCkul1z1 nD78S3OAoyRDQWk0TPVStk32zsli4qYB+rhawpZs= X-Auth-ID: tom@evslin.com Received: by smtp17.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (Authenticated sender: tom-AT-evslin.com) with ESMTPSA id B614923DA1; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 15:31:16 -0400 (EDT) From: To: "'Dave Taht'" Cc: "'Rich Brown'" , "'David Lang'" , "'Dave Taht via Starlink'" , "'dan'" , "'Dave Collier-Brown'" , "'libreqos'" , "'bloat'" References: <1d6c10c9a692bb3f2869fb1b40fa449a@rjmcmahon.com> <8301258b8fffa18bd14279bff043dd03@rjmcmahon.com> <43bcbc338aecb44a1bef49489ab6f9c8@rjmcmahon.com> <60e70b637df76234639780ab08f25d82@rjmcmahon.com> <9edd011a1a6615470b34e0837896a15f@rjmcmahon.com> <6EB62755-EF23-44BA-B2FF-66FAC708653D@gmx.de> <6qnq34os-3qss-s4q7-s286-2s49q890q920@ynat.uz> <27aea5070eeb1b1535f3e75489295feb@rjmcmahon.com> <08526EAC-7EA3-4BFA-A231-B2935E09C8AC@gmx.de> <716ECAAD-E2EE-4647-9E73-D60BF8BF9C1E@searls.com> <829A9509-0B4D-438E -BB59-1592C0B2 7C98@gmail.com> <6aeb401d96271$038d5200$0aa7f600$@evslin.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 15:31:16 -0400 Message-ID: <6b10501d96275$08573950$1905abf0$@evslin.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQH1VNBFu+IkATfrmMGkecgZtfrohgHdESucAt3GJrQCIGJqwgLLerzrAo+fxD0CaZclcAGjFf9iAmv2zRABijlyuAGxxl10Af01lbIBvOhlegIzkP5mAVuGQFMBcDd4UQFqxJRtApkuU+YCp1CIywFq/cz3AVIfxRitmdmnsA== Content-Language: en-us X-Classification-ID: afe6ebb3-4eed-4a91-bc68-660ed553625d-1-1 Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] Enabling a production model X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 19:31:17 -0000 It was a TAC set up my Genachowski in 2010. Wheeler chaired the TAC = before he was on FCC chair. I don't remember if Henning was on it. Vint = Cerf was. A post I wrote about the TAC and the end of the PSTN is here = https://blog.tomevslin.com/2011/07/tac-to-fcc-set-a-date-certain-for-the-= end-of-the-pstn.html -----Original Message----- From: Dave Taht =20 Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 3:09 PM To: tom@evslin.com Cc: Rich Brown ; David Lang ; = Dave Taht via Starlink ; dan = ; Dave Collier-Brown = ; libreqos = ; bloat Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] Enabling a production model On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 12:02=E2=80=AFPM Tom Evslin via Starlink = wrote: > > What=E2=80=99s missing in this math is how much cheaper (and better) = the installation is if you displace or hang from the existing copper = usually in great position below the electricity and almost no makeready = in this case. Problem is getting rid of the almost but not quite unused = copper plus ownership problems. I was on an FCC TAC which tried to plan = for this 14 years ago but came to nothing. What was the name of that? I have been trying to find a great talk by Henning Shulzerinne about the = copper plant, that I think took place at IETF in the 2013? 2015? timeframe that so far I have had no luck in finding. Maybe I am = remembering the wrong conference... Btw Henning is my nominee for the 5th FCC commissioner, if only we had a = vote: see: https://twitter.com/mtaht/status/1640480264760741889 It really bothers me that STILL both the CTO for the USA and the CTO of = the FCC, are only "acting". > > > Also could be burying fiber and electric with road repaving which is = way over-funded to increase reliability and decrease ongoing maintenance = costs. > > > > From: Starlink On Behalf Of=20 > Rich Brown via Starlink > Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 1:46 PM > To: David Lang > Cc: Dave Taht via Starlink ; dan=20 > ; Dave Collier-Brown=20 > ; libreqos=20 > ; bloat > Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] Enabling a production model > > > > > > On Mar 29, 2023, at 1:13 PM, David Lang via Starlink = wrote: > > > > The problem is that laying cable (or provisioning wifi access to cover = the area) is expensive, and if you try to have multiple different = companies doing it, they each need a minimum density of users to make it = worth their while. > > > > Yes, this stuff is expensive, Here is reasonably current = order-of-magnitude cost breakdown for a rural NH town nearby: > > > > 1) $55,000 per road-mile to design the system, get licenses to install = on the utility poles, "make ready" (to check that the poles are ready = for new facilities) and to hang the fiber on the pole. Installing coax = would save $5K to $8K per mile. > > > > 2) $2,000 to $4,000 per premise to install the drop from the utility = pole to the building, bring the fiber into the building and install the = router. > > > > 3) Pole rental (in NH) is about $10/pole/year. Divide miles of road by = 200 feet between poles to get an estimate of the number of poles. > > > > So density of customers is critical for the business case. That's why = there are so many monopoly providers - it's costly to overbuild an = already served area. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink -- AMA March 31: = https://www.broadband.io/c/broadband-grant-events/dave-taht Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC