From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from au-smtp-delivery-117.mimecast.com (au-smtp-delivery-117.mimecast.com [103.96.21.117]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C2FE03CB38 for ; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 18:24:46 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=auckland.ac.nz; s=mimecast20200506; t=1636151084; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=USyP8L55pCuzO48miWKYXiXA6Sj+rZXFt7RH6d0afxw=; b=Uh3NsHIbJA/6rpMFaEIpQGFsz3XGZrty0KXmxYiyhamnOIpYMXEuJngimrcIpwavpG1oko J5CfM3tRppk9CQoHHkqijCC1SCa0jUzmj6oIX1o8JPZf/35iZOvIIeHA/X+9GI6/9gJX/s q6W1l8xV5S/Pg9ZW3cx6N8Ssu1qUCUw= Received: from AUS01-ME3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-me3aus01lp2234.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.71.234]) (Using TLS) by relay.mimecast.com with ESMTP id au-mta-49-pBQi4Cj7Ms6gCcdbZ0e3OQ-1; Sat, 06 Nov 2021 09:24:41 +1100 X-MC-Unique: pBQi4Cj7Ms6gCcdbZ0e3OQ-1 Received: from SY4PR01MB6979.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:10c6:10:142::13) by SY2PR01MB2410.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:10c6:1:1c::20) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4669.13; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 22:24:35 +0000 Received: from SY4PR01MB6979.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f04c:4ca7:9275:e0fa]) by SY4PR01MB6979.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f04c:4ca7:9275:e0fa%3]) with mapi id 15.20.4669.013; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 22:24:35 +0000 Message-ID: <6d794967-fca5-e8bf-80e1-fd659f9a0682@cs.auckland.ac.nz> Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2021 11:24:32 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 To: Darrell Budic , Nathan Owens Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net References: <7907F9D1-9511-4254-BD8F-701888EB6778@onholyground.com> <4ea38008-0e62-1cad-165a-a8aad232ebd6@cs.auckland.ac.nz> From: Ulrich Speidel In-Reply-To: X-ClientProxiedBy: SYAPR01CA0033.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:10c6:1:1::21) To SY4PR01MB6979.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:10c6:10:142::13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from [IPV6:2407:7000:a14b:9100:1568:8393:b277:78b2] (2407:7000:a14b:9100:1568:8393:b277:78b2) by SYAPR01CA0033.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:10c6:1:1::21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4669.11 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 5 Nov 2021 22:24:34 +0000 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 2c32b6f8-e75a-4eb5-c66b-08d9a0ab0bc9 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: SY2PR01MB2410: X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:10000 X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0 X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:SY4PR01MB6979.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(366004)(2616005)(38100700002)(8676002)(8936002)(83380400001)(6486002)(166002)(83170400001)(31696002)(31686004)(508600001)(2906002)(966005)(66476007)(4326008)(66946007)(66556008)(110136005)(316002)(786003)(186003)(33964004)(5660300002)(53546011)(45980500001)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?ZXBVL3hJMG8xUFpvSGYwQWxKRFNNMlJ4ZGJiRXlONStoRmlNTDhwLzhFc1Ux?= =?utf-8?B?LzJGb3JyN3dSazd5N1lieFhDdFBaeDFueEhaNFhFQkNqWXQxdzNRL0Zhektu?= =?utf-8?B?THpKNjdPeStPWkRqaFJtdFUzZzJKbFlYZUtnMTBxaVZOcW8wZGlzTWhhUHAz?= =?utf-8?B?MGluNW1LUzVDbmJHbzI3QlQ1bTFZTXdTOThIeGc5eVFWZHpiWUdMY1JyNWVM?= =?utf-8?B?MnowYmtTRGhINDNHYmpGZWtxUnZoRCtldXQ4S09iR082N1lPWnJoZTA2NG80?= =?utf-8?B?aTJ1c3ZEUGlKMjYzVkFINlZCSjJwM2ZyWTBKTXlPRThWbmNvUXFDWGozYW1W?= =?utf-8?B?dlZtMnlYQlJvSktEeTNWUUxvN1VYU0xveHRvM2h4bVJydUhHNDU0QTdZSmp5?= =?utf-8?B?OG9kSGx4RHl6MkNEYTR0dDB5WHRzb0F3TXFkN1oxOHFZSVV4eFJ5czNCeVVM?= =?utf-8?B?Kzl1VXE2RWE1MWE0MU91MWRGbExZZzRJelJ6N3pIbDdibFFxczc1elBMbGVv?= =?utf-8?B?YksxbGlFREw0YmN6UVpvM1JBZFlRZlJSQzFYcTNrbGFHczNsRXg0WGVzOWwy?= =?utf-8?B?QllRemhzSlZBd0lxeklmcVp1aWtJOUxzMk5iMVQ1Zk5hUERiVUtxT3Z6cnlL?= =?utf-8?B?ckZMclVQanF5MDl5cmNiOHpOSklta0ZMREMxekdHaTNzc3BmTDNqdHJBQkFp?= =?utf-8?B?am5NcStkQkMrcXQvVkJqVWlNZERlOGFlOGdLOUJ4KzNYV1hoT3RoWTNoejgz?= =?utf-8?B?T0VBeDl5RFE0Rm9mNnVOanZ3ZlF4L0hFS0xsdHhXbVVZNXd0ZmNGUFduc0tW?= =?utf-8?B?M3czYXJ1cjlmbVRWMnJtbjliZVV2Rit5S0VMZzFKVmluVngrOERpaCtEOG5l?= =?utf-8?B?ZTlESmtEZFAvUzFSV1FuVmlZTVhJcGltVDZzV2ErSHlXYlNIdW9oSC9INlZI?= =?utf-8?B?SzIrQ0JsVG1yUnkwNTdmZVJZWXFrekw3QmN5dUZQUmZSb1JxZmcyODRRVkNs?= =?utf-8?B?WkFudGprNDVxc051SGRJVjY0QTNOMmN4akduWGVmc2lPT2RVK01sYU8zWnY0?= =?utf-8?B?WUYyVmdNL1hHcDI1T2tKbEI3dWdwQzMyMTNQZWdhRXI0aW0xcjdKbHBTZ1VZ?= =?utf-8?B?SUlqVUVVOXNvQWNTU3BZQUFwc0liMUdqemJXcXJFdVBEZHprRkxGQVJrMm05?= =?utf-8?B?eTRTc3NiYXFTM0NsTW1WZ3JDUEpSeVBlenJLYlNwQ0Rnb1RZUjlTY0RtM1VQ?= =?utf-8?B?alZYZUF2S1ZhalVNMTl2NkhNMGFzSjI5bVliNFNuNFpCaGpyanR3K0twb0lT?= =?utf-8?B?RTNqK29PRVFjVGpNazRMSUJYa0RLODA3bTY1c2VqTnRwU1pnYlBJNUZ5NStZ?= =?utf-8?B?M1dLZDlwMWxjKzlnS3ExTisyZ24waFZzT055d1FIclE4Nnc5SU5EWmlrUHF0?= =?utf-8?B?dmx6dEdackRXOHRSZGVQa0kwdkpXM2pST2piazJKKytTZkxrQ2l6MTVzMC9C?= =?utf-8?B?R3VFejB5bXRVWWc5ZWtpOWdsQ3p0Rm42cTJrY1IrSTFzZGY2Ym9EYTJYQWR5?= =?utf-8?B?cFpUdnZDeWFYL0hZWENXV0laRERFb2hPU0NRSmhCUE8xTVhEaC9nejN3bGFF?= =?utf-8?B?aVZUV3NFNWN4L1JCYXh1VFcwanQ4VXYyNUR6S2t3SFhNa1g4dHVsRTFNdnVH?= =?utf-8?B?VUhjaUJvV1ExODVhM2ZabXU5YW9DckNHSng5TzhLVzFHUGRUK29jTmxRZHB4?= =?utf-8?B?M1pBYXgzUXZ0UlVFNEgrYXFwU1hVS0VoMnhlZGR4eUdPUXNyODlkdmNBeFBZ?= =?utf-8?B?Vy9Xa0tiUFFCU2xranZ1dzFPS2tuQ0dpYkdzVGI2MjV3MlNtUDBKaGJIbWt2?= =?utf-8?B?Wk5rRjJiTWNhVUsyM3JoK3ZhcWs3aXQzNGlWNk1GKzNDSE5PUSt3U0hKamw2?= =?utf-8?B?dFNpWlcwWDFzQStFMy9mcU15MDBra1krZDlxZS9yaWYxMmtwTFhMSk40VnRF?= =?utf-8?B?bldCOExLK1Ftd2N5b2d6QjVQNDEzTmM0NlJXeW80Z05ITmNnZG5YWXhXcC82?= =?utf-8?B?TEI1bVI5aUM1MWVjM2M4RXVRZVhUbklCK3Y1YlRpNm15ajhnZ2pDTSthMHF3?= =?utf-8?B?cGYxK01GNlVQMTB2SDQzQnlDdG10OGR2dXp5VHJLSGxQSDZIcUdQbmNYOWxM?= =?utf-8?B?Y1ZHczVBUWlqNFJsNUc1WXV2QzlNcnVVSzFDN2FkMGtNU245dlJkNnVLUThT?= =?utf-8?B?UG1HcEJraEt4ZW51TDdRSkZwS2RIYW1zSEd3SXNscEMwcGRTcTJieTd1Qk8y?= =?utf-8?B?RlV1U3Z2RVVKMVlqY3piSFI0bkh1ejVCeGlUZnB1aDRrZFdWb1BlWkR1NnlR?= =?utf-8?Q?qEywGBEBIhcD5l3E=3D?= X-OriginatorOrg: cs.auckland.ac.nz X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 2c32b6f8-e75a-4eb5-c66b-08d9a0ab0bc9 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SY4PR01MB6979.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Nov 2021 22:24:34.9689 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d1b36e95-0d50-42e9-958f-b63fa906beaa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: yZbFEfuopnnhifyDTxGBf2292DJGW0RWzr/jxorTDpOGw3pvzVWUs/M7EgM99yVVnHEF3qjxMr4ultLC2/dNXNlrlTwCTF2UfB+7NNIk0tk= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SY2PR01MB2410 Authentication-Results: relay.mimecast.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=CAU17A13 smtp.mailfrom=u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz X-Mimecast-Spam-Score: 0 X-Mimecast-Originator: auckland.ac.nz Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------W6fxZz4KFAnTIlQHBu3YKjz4" Content-Language: en-US Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink tidbits from NANOG X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 22:24:47 -0000 --------------W6fxZz4KFAnTIlQHBu3YKjz4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/11/2021 2:18 pm, Darrell Budic wrote: > >> >> Waves in this case generally refers to 10G/100G leased optical=20 >> circuit capacity. > > As has already been mentioned, I did mean optical waves. Comes from my=20 > perspective as a network guy who uses lots of optical transport and=20 > DWDM systems. Realized I should have been more specific about optical=20 > waves, especially in this forum. Even more specifically, =E2=80=9Cwaves= =E2=80=9D are=20 > generally a product provided you by someone else who lights the fiber=20 > for you. In this case, probably Zayo, Lumen, Crown Castle, and maybe=20 > even Google operating the fiber. Generally 10G waves, or some multiple=20 > there of, although 100G waves are out there, and 400G are=20 > coming/testing/just entering production. > > In this case, I suspect it means 10G waves given the currently=20 > estimated capacity of the ground stations. Moving to dark lets them do=20 > Nx10G links more cost effectively, or 100G link if the distance is=20 > short enough (around 100km at the moment before you have to go to the=20 > much more expensive coherent optics). And you can do you own support=20 > and monitoring, which I got the impression was part of their problem=20 > with Google=E2=80=99s NOC. Thanks for that - I know them by a different term here but maybe I'm=20 just not up with the play ;-) I know what you mean. That said, a single=20 10G circuit wouldn't even feed a fully loaded bent pipe Gen 1 Starlink=20 bird, so I could imagine that with several birds being trackable by each=20 ground station, those 100G links and higher will be hot property. --=20 **************************************************************** Dr. Ulrich Speidel School of Computer Science Room 303S.594 (City Campus) Ph: (+64-9)-373-7599 ext. 85282 The University of Auckland ulrich@cs.auckland.ac.nz =20 http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ **************************************************************** --------------W6fxZz4KFAnTIlQHBu3YKjz4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 5/11/2021 2:18 pm, Darrell Budic wrote:
=20

Waves in this case= generally refers to 10G/100G leased optical circuit capacity. 

As has already been mentioned, I did mean optical waves. Comes from my perspective as a network guy who uses lots of optical transport and DWDM systems. Realized I should have been more specific about optical waves, especially in this forum. Even more specifically, =E2=80=9Cwaves=E2=80=9D are generall= y a product provided you by someone else who lights the fiber for you. In this case, probably Zayo, Lumen, Crown Castle, and maybe even Google operating the fiber. Generally 10G waves, or some multiple there of, although 100G waves are out there, and 400G are coming/testing/just entering production. 

In this case, I suspect it means 10G waves given the currently estimated capacity of the ground stations. Moving to dark lets them do Nx10G links more cost effectively, or 100G link if the distance is short enough (around 100km at the moment before you have to go to the much more expensive coherent optics). And you can do you own support and monitoring, which I got the impression was part of their problem with Google=E2=80=99s = NOC.
Thanks for that - I know them by a different term here but maybe I'm just not up with the play ;-) I know what you mean. That said, a single 10G circuit wouldn't even feed a fully loaded bent pipe Gen 1 Starlink bird, so I could imagine that with several birds being trackable by each ground station, those 100G links and higher will be hot property.
--=20
****************************************************************
Dr. Ulrich Speidel

School of Computer Science

Room 303S.594 (City Campus)
Ph: (+64-9)-373-7599 ext. 85282

The University of Auckland
ulrich@cs.auckland.ac.nz=20
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
****************************************************************
--------------W6fxZz4KFAnTIlQHBu3YKjz4--