From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from relay.hostedemail.com (smtprelay0012.hostedemail.com [216.40.44.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D98F3CB55 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 09:22:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from omf04.hostedemail.com (a10.router.float.18 [10.200.18.1]) by unirelay07.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85FB0160CE5; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 13:22:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [HIDDEN] (Authenticated sender: doc@searls.com) by omf04.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id E3DCB20027; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 13:22:10 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3139E34C-5F87-4B79-A99A-B0E914CBC9E4" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Doc Searls In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 09:22:09 -0400 Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Message-Id: <716ECAAD-E2EE-4647-9E73-D60BF8BF9C1E@searls.com> References: <1d6c10c9a692bb3f2869fb1b40fa449a@rjmcmahon.com> <2885829.1679221616@dyas> <20230321001019.GA4531@sunf68.rd.bbc.co.uk> <4295238B-FA57-49B6-B57B-78FFB2603B90@gmx.de> <8301258b8fffa18bd14279bff043dd03@rjmcmahon.com> <43bcbc338aecb44a1bef49489ab6f9c8@rjmcmahon.com> <60e70b637df76234639780ab08f25d82@rjmcmahon.com> <9edd011a1a6615470b34e0837896a15f@rjmcmahon.com> <6EB62755-EF23-44BA-B2FF-66FAC708653D@gmx.de> <6qnq34os-3qss-s4q7-s286-2s49q890q920@ynat.uz> <27aea5070eeb1b1535f3e75489295feb@rjmcmahon.com> <08526EAC-7EA3-4BFA-A231-B2935E09C8AC@gmx.de> To: Dave Collier-Brown X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: E3DCB20027 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.60 X-Stat-Signature: 47d43im1k1y3c5z33h5njkcqfzdsw5nj X-Rspamd-Server: rspamout05 X-Session-Marker: 646F6340736561726C732E636F6D X-Session-ID: U2FsdGVkX1/xUCaBi/KSKdI4hgjTsMzotkSxeAJSBmM= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=searls.com; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references:to; s=dkim1; bh=RnMh3JXPkncRLjaP48Mk5PFxOvODCFlb+qzJi/PMVag=; b=AHXpnsFYwAczobuB4UKIwt0Z8FGR5HnaH82uf8LSUiW9BvRzpHyNnO68QggALS0ooKuUKP32dwgcS1nmwR9Je/oR1TFYLHYpQvIsOdP6Kz/3uYRiYoJhiKyq43bP7bUj7KFLFDbHSZUK+cCglIpnSF9DeNTImPqXJwGVTWjYLjE= X-HE-Tag: 1680096130-890869 X-HE-Meta: U2FsdGVkX19Xd1dZtEoe2fdlNH87OmPaIjykbWoe7cesEuXXNt8pSvoYMCvSVZKgR4F0LZJ0jg0rPR1eoPqWWw== Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 13:22:14 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3139E34C-5F87-4B79-A99A-B0E914CBC9E4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Always a mistake to generalize from a sample of one, but in my case I = have four, because I live in four places. So I like to think that, to = some degree, I represent a kind of market demand. All those places=E2=80=94Santa Barbara (CA), New York (NY), Bloomington = (IN), and San Marino (CA)=E2=80=94are served by cable monopolies (Cox, = Spectrum, Comcast/Xfinity) that provide (or at least claim) 1 Gb = service... downstream of course. One (Cox) provides 36 Mb of upstream = capacity. The other two provide just 10 Mb. Because of that, residents = have no option to do much work, or to store large amounts of data, in = clouds (to mention just one grace of upstream capacity). The market is = rigged for consumption, not production, on the TV model. Same as it has = been since commercial activity began to explode in 1995, when John Perry = Barlow wrote Death =46rom Above. It's killer. Please read it: = https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/203356.203358 = .=20 But here in Bloomington, where I am writing now, the city has come up = with a public/private arrangement that has much promise: https://www.bloomington.in.gov/fiber = See what you think.=20 For me, the promise of fiber is a huge attraction to living and working = here. And I am not alone. Doc > On Mar 29, 2023, at 8:27 AM, Dave Collier-Brown via Starlink = wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 3/29/23 04:28, Sebastian Moeller via Starlink wrote: >> Hi Bob, >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Mar 28, 2023, at 19:47, rjmcmahon = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Interesting. I'm skeptical that our cities in the U.S. can get this = (structural separation) right. >> There really isn't that much to get wrong, you built the access = network and terminate the per household fibers in arge enough = "exchanges" there you offer ISPs to lighten up the fibers on the premise = that customers can use any ISP they want (that is present in the = exchange)... and on ISP change will just be patched differently in the = exchange. >> While I think that local "government" also could successfully run = internet access services, I see no reason why they should do so (unless = there is no competition). >> The goal here is to move the "natural monopoly" of the access network = out of the hand of the "market" (as markets simply fail as optimizing = resource allocation instruments under mono- and oligopoly conditions, on = either side). >=20 > We see the same issue in Canada: some provinces and cities happily > manage the delivery of services over cables hung from province-owned > poles (eg, TCP/IP in New Brunswick). Other provinces did less well, = and > we have "telephone poles" and "hydro poles" on the same street (in > Toronto, Ontario) >=20 > There is no real difference between New Brunswick, Ontario or, for = that > matter, Minnesota. If a province or city has operated natural = monopolies > like the last mile for water and sewer, it can operate the last mile = for > any other monopoly. >=20 > --dave >=20 > -- > David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify > System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest > dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com | -- Mark Twain >=20 >=20 > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, = including any and all attachments, contains confidential information = intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any = dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly = prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have received = this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender immediately by = return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and = deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not constitute an = express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electronic = means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or = an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this = telecommunication are subject to legal review and the completion of = formal documentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in = writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory. > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --Apple-Mail=_3139E34C-5F87-4B79-A99A-B0E914CBC9E4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Always a mistake to generalize from a sample of one, but in = my case I have four, because I live in four places. So I like to think = that, to some degree, I represent a kind of market demand.

All those places=E2=80=94S= anta Barbara (CA), New York (NY), Bloomington (IN), and San Marino = (CA)=E2=80=94are served by cable monopolies (Cox, Spectrum, = Comcast/Xfinity) that provide (or at least claim) 1 Gb service... = downstream of course. One (Cox) provides 36 Mb of upstream capacity. The = other two provide just 10 Mb.  Because of that, residents have no = option to do much work, or to store large amounts of data, in clouds (to = mention just one grace of upstream capacity). The market is rigged for = consumption, not production, on the TV model. Same as it has been since = commercial activity began to explode in 1995, when John Perry Barlow = wrote Death =46rom Above. It's killer. Please read it: https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/203356.203358. 

But here in = Bloomington, where I am writing now, the city has come up with a = public/private arrangement that has much promise:
https://www.bloomington.in.gov/fiber

See what you = think. 

For= me, the promise of fiber is a huge attraction to living and working = here. And I am not alone.

Doc

On Mar 29, 2023, at 8:27 AM, Dave = Collier-Brown via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:


On 3/29/23 04:28, Sebastian Moeller via Starlink wrote:
Hi Bob,


On Mar = 28, 2023, at 19:47, rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:

Interesting. I'm skeptical that our cities in the U.S. can = get this (structural separation) right.
There = really isn't that much to get wrong, you built the access network and = terminate the per household fibers in arge enough "exchanges" there you = offer ISPs to lighten up the fibers on the premise that customers can = use any ISP they want (that is present in the exchange)... and on ISP = change will just be patched differently in the exchange.
While I think that local "government" also could successfully = run internet access services, I see no reason why they should do so = (unless there is no competition).
The goal here is to move = the "natural monopoly" of the access network out of the hand of the = "market" (as markets simply fail as optimizing resource allocation = instruments under mono- and oligopoly conditions, on either side).

We see  the same issue in = Canada: some provinces and cities happily
manage the = delivery of services over cables hung from province-owned
poles (eg, TCP/IP in New Brunswick).  Other provinces = did less well, and
we have "telephone poles" and "hydro = poles" on the same street (in
Toronto, Ontario)

There is no real difference between New = Brunswick, Ontario or, for that
matter, Minnesota. If a = province or city has operated natural monopolies
like the = last mile for water and sewer, it can operate the last mile for
any other monopoly.

--dave

--
David Collier-Brown, =         | Always do right. This = will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people = and astonish the rest
dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com | =             &n= bsp;-- Mark Twain


CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This = telecommunication, including any and all attachments, contains = confidential information intended only for the person(s) to whom it is = addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is = strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have = received this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender = immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message from your = inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not = constitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by = electronic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract = amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained = in this telecommunication are subject to legal review and the completion = of formal documentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in = writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory.
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