From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pf1-x429.google.com (mail-pf1-x429.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::429]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CBF8A3B29D for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 23:13:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x429.google.com with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-63b7096e2e4so6586197b3a.2 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 20:13:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ieee.org; s=google; t=1682565206; x=1685157206; h=references:to:cc:in-reply-to:date:subject:mime-version:message-id :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=bdIhaGt6XvT66JoZvj/L46fLtD2nj38Hr/+/sC4z4PY=; b=faHmH/PiA0xal3LMtCfbCF/zeZM+s0zGA/BbN0Ns5+KTXpNNwA8QtRTgJllvbfV631 0OeV40gVbqiJPNXriki3x7HgeinvZEKaoMy5suUIzeMShYGJCulG27mrx4D1Mmd6BLEG EokCPfZ9T/TsF0vp80LJbSuFRKzyH67bnVMaQ= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1682565206; x=1685157206; h=references:to:cc:in-reply-to:date:subject:mime-version:message-id :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=bdIhaGt6XvT66JoZvj/L46fLtD2nj38Hr/+/sC4z4PY=; b=QAAK2FCXRjzAxEva1KmwhupkI5OQNHD/GqcRAxDHnhDB2IN+EtUJtS1r4QAkKTc3I+ GAwJOJkDPw/EAdi+4hvcb1ZsmMfMKD8Kzufy+rF775+tMfSBwDYyqlo442wIWKMmFvGU DQehaAK2AF6OO9+phcqu0EVBKYmWsKWMKZKdfqvZgI5y2lX+sA2V+LIunOJLKp34YF3j nfwPZg7ugYadaI1eqpq/YxUymem8iSHFZ5v9kn50O0in2IAAUT9VHLQ8NMtT0gPtrY9D +QKS0ZYeSvE/uUF/YSNapM7v5nr10ZDjA8KvhE+IOLp88ERw2G8mptmLmAr2qE8OkLlx 4L/w== X-Gm-Message-State: AC+VfDwVBlsImqZkfhTqq7FmPuXj8qOZu9B+5/I1gPKKKFOu0hBYU4kO B7vdPLjbOuQih48pz5jOAX5Saw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACHHUZ4qRCz0U4yNyPHkUiPSeywsbnSW7D59piZGHII7yXfZasumYB5NLG5uc/5hpSy1+DGBKviL+g== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:a09:b0:636:e0fb:8c44 with SMTP id p9-20020a056a000a0900b00636e0fb8c44mr370977pfh.12.1682565205481; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 20:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (dhcp-72-253-196-65.hawaiiantel.net. [72.253.196.65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u10-20020a62d44a000000b00637ca3eada8sm11981426pfl.6.2023.04.26.20.13.23 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 26 Apr 2023 20:13:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Eugene Y Chang Message-Id: <72235920-049F-4EF2-9B4B-A0C09F03D6B7@ieee.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0534A343-3988-4EFA-8942-370C1FC1584D"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.3\)) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 17:13:22 -1000 In-Reply-To: Cc: Eugene Chang , Daniel Schien , starlink , Vint Cerf , "e-impact@ietf.org" To: Chris Adams References: <1272.1681406523@localhost> <8151.1681416108@localhost> <24341.1681947286@localhost> <4f0fa01d97325$3f72e9a0$be58bce0$@evslin.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.3) Subject: Re: [Starlink] [E-impact] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space) X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2023 03:13:27 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0534A343-3988-4EFA-8942-370C1FC1584D Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FBF49BC0-0EC5-481B-A658-C20CE29FC7C9" --Apple-Mail=_FBF49BC0-0EC5-481B-A658-C20CE29FC7C9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Wow =E2=80=A6 5.1 square kilometer of solar panels. It is going to be really good at catching micrometeorites and small = space debris. A few small nicks won=E2=80=99t matter. Should we care? The James Webb already caught a few in it=E2=80=99s mirror. So far it = wasn=E2=80=99t serious. Gene ---------------------------------------------- Eugene Chang IEEE Communications Society & Signal Processing Society, Hawaii Chapter Chair IEEE Hawaii Section, Industry Engagement Coordinator IEEE Senior Life Member eugene.chang@ieee.org m 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu) > On Apr 19, 2023, at 11:31 PM, Chris Adams via Starlink = wrote: >=20 > Hi folks, >=20 > Is there a link to the underlying assumptions in for this "data = centres in space=E2=80=9D story or the report? >=20 > The press release mentioned solar powerplants generating several = hundred megawatts. That would require a massive amount of solar! >=20 > For context, this list here shows the largest solar plants in the US, = as of June 2021: >=20 > https://list.solar/plants/largest-plants/solar-plants-usa/ = >=20 > Even the smallest one, kicking out 200 Megawatts has a surface areas = of 5.1 square kilometers, and it only goes upward from there. >=20 > For this to be plausible, you=E2=80=99d need panels to be orders of = magnitude more efficient than they are on land when in space, even = before you think about how heavy it would be get multiple square = kilometres of solar panel into orbit. >=20 > C >=20 >=20 >=20 > Chris Adams >=20 > Executive Director >=20 > w: thegreenwebfoundation.org > e: chris@thegreenwebfoundation.org > t: @mrchrisadams >=20 > German Office > Naunynstrasse 40 > 10999 Berlin > Germany >=20 > See our contact page for more details > https://www.thegreenwebfoundation.org/contact/ = >=20 > Book a short call with me to discuss something. > https://cal.com/mrchrisadams > Chris Adams >=20 > Executive Director >=20 > w: thegreenwebfoundation.org > e: chris@thegreenwebfoundation.org > t: @mrchrisadams >=20 > German Office > Naunynstrasse 40 > 10999 Berlin > Germany >=20 > See our contact page for more details > https://www.thegreenwebfoundation.org/contact/ = >=20 > Book a short call with me to discuss something. > https://cal.com/mrchrisadams >=20 >=20 >> On 20. Apr 2023, at 07:43, Daniel Schien = wrote: >>=20 >> I assume any object in orbit will be hidden from the sun some of the = time. So, the machines will require some pretty big battery to go up = with them. >>=20 >> I'd like to also know what the launch cost is. >>=20 >> Tom Segert estimates in his LinkedIn post, for a 100kg satellite = payload: >>=20 >> "TL:DR ~57 ton CO2e for a typical ESA satellite (including Ariane 6 = launch), <15t CO2e for a satellite built in a factory and launched with = a re-usable rocket." >>=20 >> Depending on the type of server that should go up there, this is a = fair amount of carbon to offset from brighter sunlight. >>=20 >> The article also gets the carbon footprint wrong: >>=20 >> "Data centers are big energy consumers =E2=80=93 between 2% and 3% of = all global consumption =E2=80=93 a rate that is doubling every year." >>=20 >> The latest was IEA estimating it to be around 220-320 TWh (out of = 30,000) in 2021 data and growing between 10-60% over 6 years in total = (so let's than 10 CAGR). But it's certainly not doubling every year. = That's just completely wrong. >>=20 >>=20 >> Daniel Schien >> Senior Lecturer in Computer Science >> Department of Computer Science | University of Bristol >> Submit software engineering project ideas for 2022 >>=20 >> bris.ac.uk/software-engineering <> >> Watch: https://youtu.be/lU-ZsBDFWDI >>=20 >> Merchant Venturers Building , Woodland Rd Bristol, BS8 1UB >> Book a meeting: = https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/booki= = >> From: E-impact on behalf of Vint Cerf = >> Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2023 2:16:38 AM >> To: tom@evslin.com >> Cc: Michael Richardson ; starlink = ; e-impact@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [E-impact] [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: = fiber IXPs in space) >>=20 >> O&M will be a bear >> v >>=20 >>=20 >> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 9:13=E2=80=AFPM Tom Evslin via Starlink = > = wrote: >> I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than the = exception. Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usual, = things have not happened as quickly as I predicted = https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-ro= admap.html = >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Starlink > On Behalf Of Michael = Richardson via Starlink >> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM >> To: starlink >; e-impact@ietf.org = >> Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in = space) >>=20 >>=20 >> I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight. >> (I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the "first = objective"! >>=20 >> = https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thales= -alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data = >>=20 >> Cannes, November 14, 2022 =E2=80=93 Thales Alenia Space, the joint = company between Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the = European Commission to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for = European Net zero emission and Data sovereignty) feasibility study for = data centers in orbit, as part of Europe=E2=80=99s vast Horizon Europe = research program. >>=20 >> Digital technology=E2=80=99s expanding environmental footprint is = becoming a major >> challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data = centers in Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential = pace, which in turn has a critical energy and environmental impact. >>=20 >> The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon = emissions from the production and launch of these space infrastructures = will be significantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based = data centers, therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon = neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that it is possible to = develop the required launch solution and to ensure the deployment and = operability of these spaceborne data centers using robotic assistance = technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD = demonstrator. >>=20 >> This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based = data centers would limit the energy and environmental impact of their = ground counterparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of = Europe=E2=80=99s Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a = more climate-friendly, reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could thus = regain its leadership in space transport and space logistics, as well as = the assembly and operations of large infrastructures in orbit. >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net = >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink = >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net = >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink = >>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: >> Vint Cerf >> Google, LLC >> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor >> Reston, VA 20190 >> +1 (571) 213 1346 >>=20 >>=20 >> until further notice >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> E-impact mailing list >> E-impact@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e-impact >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --Apple-Mail=_FBF49BC0-0EC5-481B-A658-C20CE29FC7C9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Wow = =E2=80=A6 5.1 square kilometer of solar panels.
It is = going to be really good at catching micrometeorites and small space = debris.
A few small nicks won=E2=80=99t matter. = Should we care?

The James Webb already caught a few in it=E2=80=99s mirror. = So far it wasn=E2=80=99t serious.

Gene
----------------------------------------------
Eugene Chang
IEEE Communications Society & = Signal Processing Society,    
    = Hawaii Chapter Chair
IEEE Hawaii Section, Industry Engagement = Coordinator
IEEE Senior Life Member
eugene.chang@ieee.org
m 781-799-0233 (in = Honolulu)



On Apr 19, 2023, at 11:31 PM, Chris Adams via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

Hi = folks,

Is = there a link to the underlying assumptions in for this "data centres in = space=E2=80=9D story or the report?

The press release mentioned solar powerplants generating several hundred megawatts. = That would require a massive amount of = solar!

For = context, this list here shows the largest solar plants in the US, as of = June 2021:

https://list.solar/plants/largest-plants/solar-plants-usa/<= br class=3D"">

Even the smallest one, kicking out 200 Megawatts has a = surface areas of 5.1 square kilometers, and it only goes upward from = there.

For = this to be plausible, you=E2=80=99d need panels to be orders of = magnitude more efficient than they are on land when in space, even = before you think about how heavy it would be get multiple square = kilometres of solar panel into orbit.

C



Chris Adams

Executive Director

w: thegreenwebfoundation.org
e: chris@thegreenwebfoundation.org
t: = @mrchrisadams

German Office
Naunynstrasse 40
10999 Berlin
Germany

See our contact page for = more details
https://www.thegreenwebfoundation.org/contact/

Book a short call with me to = discuss something.
https://cal.com/mrchrisadams
Chris Adams

Executive = Director

w: thegreenwebfoundation.org
e: chris@thegreenwebfoundation.org
t: = @mrchrisadams

German Office
Naunynstrasse 40
10999 Berlin
Germany

See our contact page for = more details
https://www.thegreenwebfoundation.org/contact/

Book a short call with me to = discuss something.
https://cal.com/mrchrisadams


On 20. Apr 2023, at 07:43, Daniel Schien <Daniel.Schien@bristol.ac.uk> wrote:

I assume any object in orbit = will be hidden from the sun some of the time. So, the machines will = require some pretty big battery to go up with them. 

I'd like to also know what the = launch cost is. 

Tom Segert estimates in his = LinkedIn post, for a 100kg = satellite payload:

"TL:DR ~57 ton CO2e for a = typical ESA satellite (including Ariane 6 launch), <15t CO2e for a = satellite built in a factory and launched with a re-usable = rocket."

Depending on the type of server = that should go up there, this is a fair amount of carbon to offset from = brighter sunlight.

The article also gets the carbon = footprint wrong:

"Data centers are big energy = consumers =E2=80=93 between 2% and 3% of all global consumption =E2=80=93 a rate that is doubling = every year."

The latest was IEA estimating it = to be around 220-320 TWh (out of 30,000) in 2021 data and growing between 10-60% over 6 = years in total (so let's than 10 CAGR). But it's certainly not doubling = every year. That's just completely wrong.


Daniel Schien

Senior Lecturer in Computer Science
Department of Computer Science | University of = Bristol
Submit software engineering project ideas = for 2022

bris.ac.uk/software-engineering
Watch: https://youtu.be/lU-ZsBDFWDI

Merchant Venturers Building , Woodland Rd Bristol, BS8 = 1UB
Book a = meeting: https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.= ac.uk/booki

From: = E-impact <e-impact-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Vint Cerf = <vint=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2023 2:16:38 AM
= To: tom@evslin.com <tom@evslin.com>
Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>; = starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org = <e-impact@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [E-impact] [Starlink] DataCenters in = Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)
 
O&M will be a bear
v


On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at = 9:13=E2=80=AFPM Tom Evslin via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than the = exception. Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usual, = things have not happened as quickly as I predicted = https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-ro= admap.html

-----Original Message-----
From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of = Michael Richardson via Starlink
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM
To: starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org
Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in = space)


I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight.
(I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the "first = objective"!

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/as= cend-thales-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data

Cannes, November 14, 2022 =E2=80=93 Thales Alenia Space, the joint = company between Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the = European Commission to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for = European Net zero emission and Data sovereignty) feasibility study for data centers in orbit, as part of Europe=E2=80=99s vast = Horizon Europe research program.

Digital technology=E2=80=99s expanding environmental footprint is = becoming a major
challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data = centers in Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential = pace, which in turn has a critical energy and environmental impact.

The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon = emissions from the production and launch of these space infrastructures = will be significantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based = data centers, therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that = it is possible to develop the required launch solution and to ensure the = deployment and operability of these spaceborne data centers using = robotic assistance technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD demonstrator.

This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based data = centers would limit the energy and environmental impact of their ground = counterparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of = Europe=E2=80=99s Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a more climate-friendly, reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could = thus regain its leadership in space transport and space logistics, as = well as the assembly and operations of large infrastructures in = orbit.

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink


--
Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
Vint Cerf
Google, LLC
1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
+1 (571) 213 1346


until further notice



--
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Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

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