From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (bobcat.rjmcmahon.com [45.33.58.123]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C99D73CB52; Tue, 28 Mar 2023 14:47:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.rjmcmahon.com (bobcat.rjmcmahon.com [45.33.58.123]) by bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id F38BE1B252; Tue, 28 Mar 2023 11:46:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bobcat.rjmcmahon.com F38BE1B252 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rjmcmahon.com; s=bobcat; t=1680029220; bh=T8qSv7d1fPxM0bhVwOKvvfg24AOhFgYxyBf8t2HCYBE=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=KREytL4mJOBY5rwR45x1IhAPL47zTgl0zxjspcWXPV5OQZk56FrJozAYtvjyqp1OC NrKg/F5LqlK5TP39dwrBYvPWshSwZGEUZArxJXOTrVbMZLIwVK+/6KK0dNlnpqH9KL 3Ra4sPrTxNu2TgLipqAK2jGZCOJQxVy5AI0ctmtQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2023 11:46:59 -0700 From: rjmcmahon To: Frantisek Borsik Cc: Larry Press , Dave Taht via Starlink , bloat , dan , David Lang , libreqos , Sebastian Moeller In-Reply-To: References: <27aea5070eeb1b1535f3e75489295feb@rjmcmahon.com> Message-ID: <81945e3138c8a33a83ecd401778a2bf7@rjmcmahon.com> X-Sender: rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2023 18:47:00 -0000 There are municipal broadband projects. Most are in rural areas partially funded by the federal government via the USDA. Glasgow started a few decades ago. Similar to LUS in Lafayette, LA. https://www.usda.gov/broadband Rural areas get a lot of federal money for things, a la the farm bill which also pays for food stamps instituted as part of the New Deal after the Great Depression. https://sustainableagriculture.net/our-work/campaigns/fbcampaign/what-is-the-farm-bill/ None of this is really relevant to the vast majority of our urban populations that get broadband from investor-owned companies. These companies don't receive federal subsidies though sometimes they get access to municipal revenue bonds when doing city infrastructures. Bob > https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-mitchell-79078b5 and the like > are doing a pretty good job (given the circumstances) here in the US. > At least, that’s my understanding of his work. > > All the best, > > Frank > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 [2] > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 [3] > > Skype: casioa5302ca > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > > On 28 March 2023 at 7:47:33 PM, rjmcmahon (rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com) > wrote: > >> Interesting. I'm skeptical that our cities in the U.S. can get this >> (structural separation) right. >> >> Pre-coaxial cable & contract carriage, the FCC licensed spectrum to >> the >> major media companies and placed a news obligation on them for these >> OTA >> rights. A society can't run a democracy well without quality and >> factual >> information to the constituents. Sadly, contract carriage got rid of >> >> that news as a public service obligation as predicted by Eli Noam. >> http://www.columbia.edu/dlc/wp/citi/citinoam11.html Hence we get >> January >> 6th and an insurrection. >> >> It takes a staff of 300 to produce 30 minutes of news three times a >> day. >> The co-axial franchise agreements per each city traded this >> obligation >> for a community access channel and a small studio, and annual >> franchise >> fees. History has shown this is insufficient for a city to provide >> quality news to its citizens. Community access channels failed >> miserably. >> >> Another requirement was two cables so there would be "competition" >> in >> the coaxial offerings. This rarely happened because of natural >> monopoly >> both in the last mile and in negotiating broadcast rights (mostly >> for >> sports.) There is only one broadcast rights winner, e.g. NBC for the >> >> Olympics, and only one last mile winner. That's been proven >> empirically >> in the U.S. >> >> Now cities are dependent on those franchise fees for their budgets. >> And >> the cable cos rolled up to a national level. So it's mostly the FCC >> that >> regulates all of this where they care more about Janet Jackson's >> breast >> than providing accurate news to help a democracy function well. >> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXVIII_halftime_show_controversy >> >> >> It gets worse as people are moving to unicast networks for their >> "news." >> But we're really not getting news at all, we're gravitating to >> emotional >> validations per our dysfunctions. Facebook et al happily provide >> this >> because it sells more ads. And then the major equipment providers >> claim >> they're doing great engineering because they can carry "AI loads!!" >> and >> their stock goes up in value. This means ads & news feeds that >> trigger >> dopamine hits for addicts are driving the money flows. Which is a >> sad >> theme for undereducated populations. >> >> And ChatGPT is not the answer for our lack of education and a public >> >> obligation to support those educations, which includes addiction >> recovery programs, and the ability to think critically for >> ourselves. >> >> Bob >> Here is an old (2014) post on Stockholm to my class "textbook": >> >> > https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html >> >> >> [1] >> Stockholm: 19 years of municipal broadband success [1] >> The Stokab report should be required reading for all local >> government >> officials. Stockholm is one of the top Internet cities in the >> worl... >> >> cis471.blogspot.com [1] >> >> ------------------------- >> >> From: Starlink on behalf of >> >> Sebastian Moeller via Starlink >> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 2:11 PM >> To: David Lang >> Cc: dan ; Frantisek Borsik >> ; libreqos >> ; Dave Taht via Starlink >> ; rjmcmahon >> ; >> bloat >> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure >> w/Comcast chat >> >> Hi David, >> >> On Mar 26, 2023, at 22:57, David Lang wrote: >> >> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wrote: >> >> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital > communications infrastructure as life support critical. > >>> Well, let's keep things in perspective, unlike power, water > (fresh and waste), and often gas, communications infrastructure is > mostly not critical yet. But I agree that we are clearly on a path in > that direction, so it is time to look at that from a different > perspective. > >>> Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access network into > communal hands, as these guys already do a decent job with other > critical infrastructure (see list above, plus roads) and I see a PtP > fiber access network terminating in some CO-like locations a viable > way to allow ISPs to compete in the internet service field all the > while using the communally build access network for a few. IIRC this > is how Amsterdam organized its FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS wiring has > beed essentially unchanged for decades, I estimate that current fiber > access lines would also last for decades requiring no active component > > changes in the field, making them candidates for communal management. > (With all my love for communal ownership and maintenance, these > typically are not very nimble and hence best when we talk about life > times of decades). > >> This is happening in some places (the town where I live is doing > such a rollout), but the incumbant ISPs are fighting this and in many > > states have gotten laws created that prohibit towns from building such > > systems. > > A resistance that in the current system is understandable*... > btw, my point is not wanting to get rid of ISPs, I really just think > that the access network is more of a natural monopoly and if we want > actual ISP competition, the access network is the wrong place to > implement it... as it is unlikely that we will see multiple ISPs > running independent fibers to all/most dwelling units... There are two > > ways I see to address this structural problem: > a) require ISPs to rent the access links to their competitors for > "reasonable" prices > b) as I proposed have some non-ISP entity build and maintain the > access network > > None of these is terribly attractive to current ISPs, but we already > see how the economically more attractive PON approach throws a spanner > > into a), on a PON the competitors might get bitstream access, but will > > not be able to "light up" the fiber any way they see fit (as would be > possible in a PtP deployment, at least in theory). My subjective > preference is b) as I mentioned before, as I think that would offer a > level playing field for ISPs to compete doing what they do best, offer > > internet access service while not pushing the cost of the access > network build-out to all-fiber onto the ISPs. This would allow a > fairer, less revenue driven approach to select which areas to convert > to FTTH first.... > > However this is pretty much orthogonal to Bob's idea, as I understand > it, as this subthread really is only about getting houses hooked up to > > the internet and ignores his proposal how to do the in-house network > design in a future-proof way... > > Regards > Sebastian > > *) I am not saying such resistance is nice or the right thing, just > that I can see why it is happening. > >> David Lang > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vFtTwFdYBTFjrJCFqT0rp0o2dtaz2m-dskeRLX2dIW_Pujge6ZU8eOIxtkN_spTDlqyyzClrVbEMFFbvL3NlUgIHOg$ > > > Links: > ------ > [1] > https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html > > > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://cis471.blogspot.com > [2] tel:+421919416714 > [3] tel:+420775230885