From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qt1-x82a.google.com (mail-qt1-x82a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF0B03CB40; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 13:46:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x82a.google.com with SMTP id hf2so15881903qtb.3; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 10:46:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1680111981; h=references:to:cc:in-reply-to:date:subject:mime-version:message-id :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=kctrDl1YlZzaTYTQ/9KYEpqmCkeyYszDhn5htx2w8+A=; b=FnJZc4OLcJmeB88xP9dF4xyUmeWQp4xoiNMRm6RAHpZwe5GD40csfqD9GfyZ8lYgzo G1LYCLHFe4T0kcr+nodnG5EJVXgVW1NHJKxQzN1jo8x4PZnOt/TgpgT2omKjgdqSSoAU 1XDNpKem7v0V9MwVTTb9tf1AhKZN8bk+UM0WEKwdvbtjL9l7G/JjBEbygC/IPXU3/pIr +LvUeLvT9UuyicgB9KOv0r/IHkmPaoFDn+Zb/hb13MJNNdlAhbkDHvam2pLlAn8bA9ul vn0e/wDa7HiI39GMFIfSAEDXXfRiR3Ic7COIHwpcuSAz26JEAEu56w714r0FWIyISJ/4 G8DQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1680111981; h=references:to:cc:in-reply-to:date:subject:mime-version:message-id :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=kctrDl1YlZzaTYTQ/9KYEpqmCkeyYszDhn5htx2w8+A=; b=LogNmTJP9Zc6VyNNW6ATGRy+NeM1JlQgixvDr3K+rtC9wRJUHFbJw1f/DDFAOpexkb yo5Gj41+3JtkFo+cni+Y19UTwY6K8NWnwWYINfZekRYYo2gegpk4Cci15c9zUpHZdG3a cIO+0cLSb1n5P/f779b/MyNO6toTljRqLsZ9o+oWkhmIGQuV1h60rqt2pAwrdFtc5tKY ajbKoq0NJcAbSanfCZ3us2hwEEqmO4y4Ig8AL5ohuYXBhqkrpk4apOsjpzK4Y4yCrafR 1KJ1dXjAw6GTt4JUKk64J/Jyqe0BKHgSkBHgtD3kyQ8vPpR8uNuKQdevhh4vqMQI5UMy 1NCA== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9eLtGlvtrii4aIJ2Vm385ZeCKIlrjY9/7cUSJ4oXdJ8Ae36yiio 1K5GHwVp/J+q0cNZ59NFU2Y= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350YtMoJzFR4VHi7TJM+NQ04ZEvKb5tDc7aih/YVJDAKphsgcJ9A9l0m2tEFWV5Q2C2a09/qBrg== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5c0e:0:b0:3e4:e278:a6a0 with SMTP id i14-20020ac85c0e000000b003e4e278a6a0mr4519722qti.16.1680111981114; Wed, 29 Mar 2023 10:46:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([198.55.239.10]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 12-20020a370b0c000000b0074680682acdsm14185244qkl.76.2023.03.29.10.46.20 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 29 Mar 2023 10:46:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Rich Brown Message-Id: <829A9509-0B4D-438E-BB59-1592C0B27C98@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4F38A073-3AA3-4566-B242-7B2DE861965D" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.2\)) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 13:46:19 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: dan , Dave Collier-Brown , libreqos , Dave Taht via Starlink , bloat To: David Lang References: <1d6c10c9a692bb3f2869fb1b40fa449a@rjmcmahon.com> <8301258b8fffa18bd14279bff043dd03@rjmcmahon.com> <43bcbc338aecb44a1bef49489ab6f9c8@rjmcmahon.com> <60e70b637df76234639780ab08f25d82@rjmcmahon.com> <9edd011a1a6615470b34e0837896a15f@rjmcmahon.com> <6EB62755-EF23-44BA-B2FF-66FAC708653D@gmx.de> <6qnq34os-3qss-s4q7-s286-2s49q890q920@ynat.uz> <27aea5070eeb1b1535f3e75489295feb@rjmcmahon.com> <08526EAC-7EA3-4BFA-A231-B2935E09C8AC@gmx.de> <716ECAAD-E2EE-4647-9E73-D60BF8BF9C1E@searls.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.2) Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] Enabling a production model X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2023 17:46:21 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4F38A073-3AA3-4566-B242-7B2DE861965D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Mar 29, 2023, at 1:13 PM, David Lang via Starlink = wrote: >=20 > The problem is that laying cable (or provisioning wifi access to cover = the area) is expensive, and if you try to have multiple different = companies doing it, they each need a minimum density of users to make it = worth their while. Yes, this stuff is expensive, Here is reasonably current = order-of-magnitude cost breakdown for a rural NH town nearby: 1) $55,000 per road-mile to design the system, get licenses to install = on the utility poles, "make ready" (to check that the poles are ready = for new facilities) and to hang the fiber on the pole. Installing coax = would save $5K to $8K per mile. 2) $2,000 to $4,000 per premise to install the drop from the utility = pole to the building, bring the fiber into the building and install the = router.=20 3) Pole rental (in NH) is about $10/pole/year. Divide miles of road by = 200 feet between poles to get an estimate of the number of poles. So density of customers is critical for the business case. That's why = there are so many monopoly providers - it's costly to overbuild an = already served area. --Apple-Mail=_4F38A073-3AA3-4566-B242-7B2DE861965D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

On Mar 29, 2023, at 1:13 PM, David Lang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

The problem is that laying cable = (or provisioning wifi access to cover the area) is expensive, and if you = try to have multiple different companies doing it, they each need a = minimum density of users to make it worth their = while.

Yes, = this stuff is expensive, Here is reasonably current order-of-magnitude = cost breakdown for a rural NH town nearby:

1) $55,000 per road-mile to design the = system, get licenses to install on the utility poles, "make ready" (to = check that the poles are ready for new facilities) and to hang the fiber = on the pole. Installing coax would save $5K to $8K per mile.

2) $2,000 to $4,000 per = premise to install the drop from the utility pole to the building, bring = the fiber into the building and install the router. 

3) Pole rental (in NH) = is about $10/pole/year. Divide miles of road by 200 feet between poles = to get an estimate of the number of poles.

So density of customers is critical for = the business case. That's why there are so many monopoly providers - = it's costly to overbuild an already served area.

= --Apple-Mail=_4F38A073-3AA3-4566-B242-7B2DE861965D--