From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from vsmx002.dclux.xion.oxcs.net (vsmx002.dclux.xion.oxcs.net [185.74.65.108]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9CDF33CBC5 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 14:03:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from proxy-1.proxy.oxio.ns.xion.oxcs.net (proxy-1.proxy.oxio.ns.xion.oxcs.net [83.61.18.4]) by mx-out.dclux.xion.oxcs.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 6E2BB8C03D9 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 18:03:42 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dclux.xion.oxcs.net; s=mail1; t=1678903423; bh=BjceXnnkaobahRedL10l2kuDBpyJ52e/pbWwEfr3Ohk=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From; b=V9AvTRc7Vbbz8PCYiEegEcU4SUt55sMQO+Ogy0yABNObxtJ2nPUG+zZQPfGRl+vJK KzeLMNRnBPA8n2pOFuyzEiQo1ZQo2QZnTolrVSoqJ5wgOIpHYMHoIOQB0WgAazrzw2 74LPk5HsDmpm/AILqvX7bFGp+IiAmOSDveVpGqoQfIJYAIZMjPT0cbGxcvTQOydbBf KrqpY4FbN1CMqoHypQ8ZO7Fe/b9RlvPt1eBV2+X9eThec7ZgdGYnweGZNksn4SvBfI PAm7h9n5U5sHy4HPbnkZj6pNCWIK2iSu/9Pjn5PFg4jtvc4As03VoUOTPmyjSOZiIC NVJNT1UEUF9fQ== Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 19:03:35 +0100 From: Mike Puchol To: Dave Taht via Starlink Message-ID: <852632e8-e990-4e09-998f-cfda16b471b8@Spark> In-Reply-To: References: <22C819FA-DDD7-4B9B-8C09-8008D4273287@gmx.de> <5e7fac51071bdbb20837e72e7eedfc7c@rjmcmahon.com> <3f45d2a0b6e46d7b2775fb801e805f93@rjmcmahon.com> <70F71290-C6CB-4D19-8A88-F0F17C0BDDA2@gmx.de> <5e0cd693c4749d128dbb48d6c1129071@rjmcmahon.com> <2ab2983d-6beb-49cb-8c35-e481cbfdc7a3@Spark> <89c55d67-86f0-494d-a09e-c9aeebe46dc0@rjmcmahon.com> <70CBB03C-4394-4A93-BBB5-7449DC1AAF9C@gmx.de> <063359bf-5bf3-4688-852c-a7d81e6b80a3@rjmcmahon.com> <21f2252ff57e60dc52e7b9a6db8ba936@rjmcmahon.com> <8a04de1c-2d47-4226-a1ac-ea3d5e7b7253@rjmcmahon.com> <949886c0f65025a626887d09a818c233@rjmcmahon.com> X-Readdle-Message-ID: 852632e8-e990-4e09-998f-cfda16b471b8@Spark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="6412087c_48aeb063_3617" X-VadeSecure-Status: LEGIT X-VADE-STATUS: LEGIT Subject: Re: [Starlink] [LibreQoS] [Bloat] [Rpm] On FiWi X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 18:03:44 -0000 --6412087c_48aeb063_3617 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I can give you a practical example of this not working. A company in Keny= a, with copious funding from investors, laid out fiber to literally every= single building in a area of Nairobi, I estimate some 500 apartment buil= dings, with one ONU per building. They then proceeded to install a PoE switch fed by the ONU, and anywhere = between two to six TP-Link Wi=46i APs on the hallways of each floor of ea= ch apartment block. A quick wardrive around the main streets revealed som= e 1000 unique APs, so I estimate the total build to be around 4-5k APs to= tal. The model behind this, of course, is to avoid costly per-home installs, y= ou deploy infra once, and you're done. Reality was that most people could not connect to the APs in the hallways= , or if they did, the connection was quite poor. Imagine the noise and in= terference levels of such an unmanaged Wi=46i network=21 End result: whenever a customer wanted service, they would unplug the nea= rest AP from the hallway, run the ethernet cable into their house, and in= stall a cheaper AP inside. And they still have to maintain a network of k= ilometers of multi-core ADSS and drop cables everywhere. Another of the big lessons I've learned through my career is that anythin= g wireless is an uncontrolled medium, even if you have licensed spectrum = only you can use. The only way to guarantee the medium is to use wire/fib= er - and even then you have other things that can get in the way, but I d= igress. Best, Mike On Mar 15, 2023 at 18:42 +0100, dan via Starlink , wrote: > Trying to do all of what is currently wanted with 1 AP in a house is a = huge part of the current problems with Wi=46i networks.=C2=A0 MOAR power = to try to overcome attenuation=C2=A0and reflections from walls so more po= wer bleeds into the next home/suite/apartment etc. > > In the MSP space it's been rapidly moving to an AP per room with output= turned down to minimum.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Doing this we can reused 5Ghz chann= els 50ft away (through 2 walls etc...) without interference. > > One issue with the RRH model is that to accomplish this 'light bulb' mo= del, ie you put a light bulb in the room you want light, is that it requi= res infrastructure cabling.=C2=A0 1 RRH AP in a house is already a failur= e today and accounts for most access complaints. > > Mesh radios have provided a bit of a gap fill, getting the access SSID = closer to the device and backhauling on a separate channel with better (a= nd likely fixed position=C2=A0) antennas. > > regardless of my opinion on the full on failure of moving firewall off = prem and the associated security risks and liabilities, single AP in a ho= me is already a proven failure that has given rise to the mesh systems th= at are top sellers and top performers today. > > IMO, there was a scheme that gained a moment of fame and then died out = of powerline networking and an AP per room off that powerline network.=C2= =A0 I have some of these deployed with mikrotik PLA adapters and the mode= l works fantastically, but the powerline networking has evolved slowly so= I'm seeing =7E200Mbps practical speeds, and the mikrotik units have 802.= 11n radios in them so also a bit of a struggle for modern speeds.=C2=A0 =C2= =A0This model, with some development to get =7E2.5Gbps practical speeds, = and Wi=46i6 or Wi=46i7 per room at very low output power, is a very pract= ical and deployable by consumers setup. > > Wi=46i7 also solves some pieces of this with AP coordination and co-tra= nsmission, sort of like a MUMIMO with multiple APs, and that's in early d= evices already (TPLINK just launched an AP). > > IMO, too many hurdles for RRH models from massive amounts of unfrastruc= ture to build, homes and appartment buildings that need re-wired, securit= y and liability concerns of homes and business not being firewall isolate= d by stakeholders of those networks. > > > On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 11:32=E2=80=AFAM rjmcmahon wrote: > > > The 6G is a contiguous 1200MhZ. It has low power indoor (LPI) and v= ery > > > low power (VLP) modes. The pluggable transceiver could be color cod= ed to > > > a chanspec, then the four color map problem can be used by installe= rs > > > per those chanspecs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/=46our=5Fcolor=5F= theorem > > > > > > There is no CTS with microwave =22interference=22 The high-speed PH= Y rates > > > combined with low-density AP/STA ratios, ideally 1/1, decrease the > > > probability of time signal superpositions. The goal with wireless i= sn't > > > high densities but to unleash humans. A bunch of humans stuck in a = dog > > > park isn't really being unleashed. It's the ability to move from bl= ock > > > to block so-to-speak. =46iWi is cheaper than sidewalks, sanitation > > > systems, etc. > > > > > > The goal now is very low latency. Higher phy rates can achieve that= and > > > leave the medium free the vast most of the time and shut down the R= RH > > > too. Engineering extra capacity by orders of magnitude is better th= an > > > AQM. This has been the case in data centers for decades. Congestion= =3F Add > > > a zero (or multiple by 10) > > > > > > Note: None of this is done. This is a 5-10 year project with zero > > > engineering resources assigned. > > > > > > Bob > > > > On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible conversation= has > > > >> to halt. > > > > > > > > The wireless network is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden > > > > transmitter problem because there is a similar network in the nex= t > > > > room. > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F > Starlink mailing list > Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --6412087c_48aeb063_3617 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
I can give you a practical example of this not work= ing. A company in Kenya, with copious funding from investors, laid out fi= ber to literally every single building in a area of Nairobi, I estimate s= ome 500 apartment buildings, with one ONU per building.

They then proceeded to install a PoE switch fed by the ONU, and anywhere = between two to six TP-Link Wi=46i APs on the hallways of each floor of ea= ch apartment block. A quick wardrive around the main streets revealed som= e 1000 unique APs, so I estimate the total build to be around 4-5k APs to= tal.

The model behind this, of course, is to avoid costly per-home installs, y= ou deploy infra once, and you're done.&=23160;

Reality was that most people could not connect to the APs in the hallways= , or if they did, the connection was quite poor. Imagine the noise and in= terference levels of such an unmanaged Wi=46i network=21

End result: whenever a customer wanted service, they would unplug the nea= rest AP from the hallway, run the ethernet cable into their house, and in= stall a cheaper AP inside. And they still have to maintain a network of k= ilometers of multi-core ADSS and drop cables everywhere.

Another of the big lessons I've learned through my career is that anythin= g wireless is an uncontrolled medium, even if you have licensed spectrum = only you can use. The only way to guarantee the medium is to use wire/fib= er - and even then you have other things that can get in the way, but I d= igress.

Best,

Mike
On Mar 15, 2023 at 18:42 +0100, dan= via Starlink <starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net>, wrote:
Trying= to do all of what is currently wanted with 1 AP in a house is a huge par= t of the current problems with Wi=46i networks.&=23160; MOAR power to try= to overcome attenuation&=23160;and reflections from walls so more power = bleeds into the next home/suite/apartment etc.&=23160;&=23160;

In the MSP space it's been rapidly moving to an AP per room with output t= urned down to minimum.&=23160; &=23160; Doing this we can reused 5Ghz cha= nnels 50ft away (through 2 walls etc...) without interference.

One issue with the RRH model is that to accomplish this 'light bulb' mode= l, ie you put a light bulb in the room you want light, is that it require= s infrastructure cabling.&=23160; 1 RRH AP in a house is already a failur= e today and accounts for most access complaints.

Mesh radios have provided a bit of a gap fill, getting the access SSID cl= oser to the device and backhauling on a separate channel with better (and= likely fixed position&=23160;) antennas.&=23160;

regardless of my opinion on the full on failure of moving firewall off pr= em and the associated security risks and liabilities, single AP in a home= is already a proven failure that has given rise to the mesh systems that= are top sellers and top performers today.

IMO, there was a scheme that gained a moment of fame and then died out of= powerline networking and an AP per room off that powerline network.&=231= 60; I have some of these deployed with mikrotik PLA adapters and the mode= l works fantastically, but the powerline networking has evolved slowly so= I'm seeing =7E200Mbps practical speeds, and the mikrotik units have 802.= 11n radios in them so also a bit of a struggle for modern speeds.&=23160;= &=23160;This model, with some development to get =7E2.5Gbps practical sp= eeds, and Wi=46i6 or Wi=46i7 per room at very low output power, is a very= practical and deployable by consumers setup.

Wi=46i7 also solves some pieces of this with AP coordination and co-trans= mission, sort of like a MUMIMO with multiple APs, and that's in early dev= ices already (TPLINK just launched an AP).

IMO, too many hurdles for RRH models from massive amounts of unfrastructu= re to build, homes and appartment buildings that need re-wired, security = and liability concerns of homes and business not being firewall isolated = by stakeholders of those networks.&=23160;&=23160;

On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 1= 1:32=E2=80=AFAM rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon=40rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
The 6G is a= contiguous 1200MhZ. It has low power indoor (LPI) and very
low power (VLP) modes. The pluggable transceiver could be color coded to<= br /> a chanspec, then the four color map problem can be used by installers
per those chanspecs. https:/= /en.wikipedia.org/wiki/=46our=5Fcolor=5Ftheorem

There is no CTS with microwave =22interference=22 The high-speed PHY rate= s
combined with low-density AP/STA ratios, ideally 1/1, decrease the
probability of time signal superpositions. The goal with wireless isn't high densities but to unleash humans. A bunch of humans stuck in a dog park isn't really being unleashed. It's the ability to move from block to block so-to-speak. =46iWi is cheaper than sidewalks, sanitation
systems, etc.

The goal now is very low latency. Higher phy rates can achieve that and leave the medium free the vast most of the time and shut down the RRH
too. Engineering extra capacity by orders of magnitude is better than
AQM. This has been the case in data centers for decades. Congestion=3F Ad= d
a zero (or multiple by 10)

Note: None of this is done. This is a 5-10 year project with zero
engineering resources assigned.

Bob
> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon
> <rjmcmahon=40rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
>
>> the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible conversation= has
>> to halt.
>
> The wireless network is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden
> transmitter problem because there is a similar network in the next > room.
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
Starlink mailing list
Starlink=40lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
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