From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (bobcat.rjmcmahon.com [45.33.58.123]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE7D63CBC5; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 13:44:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.rjmcmahon.com (bobcat.rjmcmahon.com [45.33.58.123]) by bobcat.rjmcmahon.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 03BB91EEE8; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 10:44:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bobcat.rjmcmahon.com 03BB91EEE8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rjmcmahon.com; s=bobcat; t=1678902255; bh=VzBfLqmEezXbGiok1wQLFoK58MLUVhm3Kcd8x+oFXtY=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=Rm33VVRBeLk4CzSDLZfvKPJKIBxFjYgf71lO3cE80nx7YfbeLyt+r0gVTJv03ZEtC g2JjcDR27oJMgVj1vf7/kjriU7QYIsgPq6b96pYp52Vi+ylDaJMHrwNL7nHexoCvqf GbwiGuo47UHVobFo1g4wnHcxwMg/eEOvQrNSES0s= MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 10:44:14 -0700 From: rjmcmahon To: Bruce Perens Cc: Aaron Wood , Dave Taht via Starlink , Rpm , bloat , dan , libreqos In-Reply-To: References: <22C819FA-DDD7-4B9B-8C09-8008D4273287@gmx.de> <5e7fac51071bdbb20837e72e7eedfc7c@rjmcmahon.com> <3f45d2a0b6e46d7b2775fb801e805f93@rjmcmahon.com> <70F71290-C6CB-4D19-8A88-F0F17C0BDDA2@gmx.de> <5e0cd693c4749d128dbb48d6c1129071@rjmcmahon.com> <2ab2983d-6beb-49cb-8c35-e481cbfdc7a3@Spark> <89c55d67-86f0-494d-a09e-c9aeebe46dc0@rjmcmahon.com> <70CBB03C-4394-4A93-BBB5-7449DC1AAF9C@gmx.de> <063359bf-5bf3-4688-852c-a7d81e6b80a3@rjmcmahon.com> <21f2252ff57e60dc52e7b9a6db8ba936@rjmcmahon.com> <8a04de1c-2d47-4226-a1ac-ea3d5e7b7253@rjmcmahon.com> Message-ID: <87ab0815bceeee02b60be38bf13ace65@rjmcmahon.com> X-Sender: rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] [LibreQoS] [Bloat] On FiWi X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 17:44:15 -0000 My brother and I installed irrigation systems in Texas where it rains a lot. No problem with getting business. Digging trenches, laying & gluing PVC pipe, installing controller wires, etc is good, respectable work. I wonder if too many white-collar workers avoided blue-collar work and don't understand that blue-collar workers actually are very interested in installing fiber (or Actifi) and being part of improving things. Bob > I think the big problem with this is users per domicile. It's easy > enough to support one floor of a residence with a single AP. There is > an upper limit on the bandwidth that one user can ever require. It is > probably what is needed for full-sphere VR at the perceptual limit. We > have long achieved the perceptual limit of ears, on top of that we > have a lot of tweaking and self-deception. We will get to the limit of > eyes. Multiply this by eight users per domicile for a limit that most > would fit in. We can probably do that with one AP. The additional > equipment and maintenance outlay for structural fiber and an AP per > room doesn't really seem worth it. > > On Wed, Mar 15, 2023, 09:17 Aaron Wood wrote: > >> I like the general idea, especially if there was a site-wide >> controller module that can do the sort of frequency allocation that >> network engineers do in dense AP deployments today: adjacent APs >> run on different frequency bands so that they reduce the likelihood >> of stepping on each others transmissions. >> >> One of the biggest knowledge gaps that I see people have around >> wireless is that it IS a shared medium. It both is, and isn’t a >> bus. Shared like a bus, but with the hidden transmissions that >> remove the csma abilities that get with a bus. >> >> But the main issue will be deployment. This would be great for >> commercial buildings that get retrofitted every decade or so with >> new gear. >> >> This will be near-impossible in the US except for new construction >> or big remodels of existing structures. The cost of opening the >> walls to run the fiber will make the cost of the hardware itself >> insignificant. >> >> OTOH, because the STAs aren’t specialized, the existing ones >> “just work”, and so you don’t have the usual bootstrap issue >> that plagues tech like zigbee and Zwave, where there isn’t enough >> infra to justify the devices, or not enough devices to justify the >> infra. >> >> -Aaron >> >> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 10:21 PM Bruce Perens via Rpm >> wrote: >> >> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11 PM Robert McMahon >> wrote: >> >> the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible conversation has >> to halt. >> The wireless network is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden >> transmitter problem because there is a similar network in the next >> room. >> _______________________________________________ >> Rpm mailing list >> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm > -- > - Sent from my iPhone.