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[72.253.194.45]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ns5-20020a17090b250500b002a5f44353d2sm23609415pjb.7.2024.04.30.12.31.21 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 30 Apr 2024 12:31:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Eugene Y Chang Message-Id: <959491DA-32AB-4FF7-B8B6-3680E1BFE368@ieee.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C6C359E3-D348-4018-920A-454B8AE14257"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.8\)) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 09:31:19 -1000 In-Reply-To: Cc: Eugene Y Chang , Dave Taht via Starlink To: Colin_Higbie References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.8) Subject: Re: [Starlink] =?utf-8?q?It=E2=80=99s_the_Latency=2C_FCC?= X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 19:31:24 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C6C359E3-D348-4018-920A-454B8AE14257 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9063042A-1049-4F5B-8108-AA9EF7CD4E83" --Apple-Mail=_9063042A-1049-4F5B-8108-AA9EF7CD4E83 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Colin, I agree with your comments. Where do the 3 - 8 sec pauses in my video experience fit this = discussion? An occasional pause (once an evening) pause might be overlooked. Several = times in a program suggest a systemic problem. Gene ---------------------------------------------- Eugene Chang IEEE Life Senior Member IEEE Communications Society & Signal Processing Society, Hawaii Chapter Chair IEEE Life Member Affinity Group Hawaii Chair IEEE Entrepreneurship, Mentor eugene.chang@ieee.org m 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu) > On Apr 30, 2024, at 9:12 AM, Colin_Higbie via Starlink = wrote: >=20 >>>> Spotify lower quality than CD and still usable: one would check not = Spotify, but other services for audiophiles; some of these use 'DSD' = formats which go way beyond the so called high-def audio of 384khz = sampling freqs. They dont 'stream' but download. It is these = higher-than-384khz sampling rates equivalent (e.g. DSD1024 is the = equivalent of, I think of something like 10 times CD quality, I think). = If Spotify is the king of streamers, in the future other companies might = become the kings of something else than 'streaming', a name yet to be = invented. >>>> For each of them, it is true, normal use will not expose any more = advantage than the previous version (no advantage of 8K over 4K, no = advantage of 88KHz DVD audio over CD, etc) - yet the progress is ongoing = on and on, and nobody comes back to CD or to DVD audio or to SD = (standard definition video). >>>> Finally, 8K and DSD per se are requirements of just bandwidth. The = need of latency should be exposed there, and that is not = straightforward. But higher bandwidths will come with lower latencies = anyways. >=20 > Sorry, not sure if that's Alexandre or Sebastion, but to those points: >=20 > Spotify is absolutely the correct metric because it's the commercial = leader (and roughly aligned from a quality perspective with Amazon = Music, Apple, iHeart Radio, and the others popular services). The fact = that it's lower quality than what audiophiles (myself included) would = prefer only proves the point: most users (AKA the "market") don't care = enough about the audio quality to want to go beyond CD quality. This is = how the market establishes a "sufficient" level of quality. It's not a = fixed figure and can change over time. If some musical artist creates = some popular music that sounds meaningfully different to most listeners = between 44.1kHz CD quality and the newer higher quality 96kHz 7.1 = surround sound AND if the cost in equipment and connections to hear that = difference were attainable to the mass market, then that could move the = standard, but that's what it would take. >=20 > If it's only we few audiophiles who hear the difference, then the = market won't care and will continue to say, "CD Quality is good enough. = Now leave me alone with my music." :-) >=20 > If Spotify were in mono and sounded fuzzy like old AM radio, because = that's clearly much worse even to the untrained ear, there would be an = ongoing push for better quality audio. But that's not the situation. >=20 > Same logic with video. Is 12K better than 8K better than 4K? Yes. Is = that a commercially important distinction? No, not in 2024, and the = video quality change vectors would suggest it won't be in the next 10 = years either (maybe will be after that). This is because at that quality = level (like CD quality for audio), the digital quality achieves a level = where either original recording equipment or the average human eye, = brain, and ear can no longer distinguish between further advances. This = is not an argument against over-provisioning bandwidth capacity to plan = for the future, just laying out that a future with greater bandwidth = needs per video stream is nothing that's coming soon. >=20 > (As a LAN aside and parallel to show there is a common precedent with = networking equipment for these growth rates, home and small business = routers have had a max bandwidth of 1Gbps at mass market pricing for = over a decade. Arguably, that's still the upper limit today. 10Gbps is = still extremely rare and expensive for routers with more than a single = 10Gbps uplink port, with 2.5Gbps being the more common upgrade both on = PC motherboards and in the router ports.) >=20 > SD -> HD is a HUGE improvement. SD is fuzzy (like mono AM radio). = Facial expressions are hard to see without filling the screen with the = person's face. HD -> 4K is noticeable, but much less significant. 4K = with compression artifacts looks WORSE than a high quality 1080p stream. = 4K -> 8K is literally imperceptible to typical people on typical sized = TV's. While there are video cameras that can record at 8K in good = lighting (even good reasonably priced studio digital cameras cannot = record quality above 4K without excellent lighting), the picture quality = limits are defined more by the optics and what's in focus than by the = number of pixels. Further, for displaying an image even on an 83" TV, = when viewed from more than a few feet away, must humans can't tell the = difference between 4K and 8K even if the 8K image truly is sharper (and = remember, they're usually not due to camera limitations). >=20 > But all of that technical explanation is also irrelevant. The fact is = that Netflix, Amazon, Disney+, and some of the other big streaming = services only offer 4K + HDR streams. None of them offer or have = suggested that they intend to offer anything higher than that. The = lion's share of TVs for sale today are also 4K TV. Even computer = monitors, which have always been a leading indicator for TV resolutions, = mostly top at 4K. There are a few 5K monitors, but the price jump from = 4K to 5K is substantial. 8K monitors are rarer and even more expensive. = This gives insight into a minimum timeframe before 4K is supplanted by = 8K or something else: it's at least many years away. I suspect 3D may = make a comeback before 8K (or maybe together =E2=80=93 sometimes tech = advances because it's paired with something else, like Blu-ray and = 1080p). >=20 > I worry that many of the discussions here around bandwidth needs are = academic and not market driven. Engineers and scientists know better = than the market HOW to do something, HOW to solve the problems, but = market always knows better than the engineers WHAT it wants. To be clear = on a point dear to many here, the market may not know how to describe = what it wants (e.g., the failing of ISPs to promote the importance of = latency), but ignorance on technical matters is not the same as not = knowing what it likes and wants. We can easily test for those = distinctions via focus groups to let people actually experience the = differences or via usage surveys to find out what users want to do. If = you have a statistically significant sample, you will get a = statistically significant response on what matters. >=20 > One last caveat: while the market is the ONLY group that matters in = determining what it wants, the market also may be poor in explaining = what it wants. If you'd asked the market what it wanted improved in a = VCR, the market never would have said, "We want a DVD player" or "We = want streaming video over the Internet." They would just say they don't = like picture quality, rewinding tapes, tape wear, etc. All problems = solved by DVD and modern streaming. So it's important for marketing = teams working with engineers to ask the right questions and truly = understand the responses so that clever engineers can innovate the best = solutions to solve the market's pain points. >=20 > Hope that helps everyone here. >=20 > Cheers, > Colin >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Starlink On Behalf Of = starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2024 10:56 AM > To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > Subject: Starlink Digest, Vol 37, Issue 12 >=20 > Send Starlink mailing list submissions to > starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >=20 > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net >=20 > You can reach the person managing the list at > starlink-owner@lists.bufferbloat.net >=20 > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific = than "Re: Contents of Starlink digest..." >=20 >=20 > Today's Topics: >=20 > 1. Re: It=E2=80=99s the Latency, FCC (Sebastian Moeller) >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 16:45:07 +0200 > From: Sebastian Moeller > To: Alexandre Petrescu > Cc: Hesham ElBakoury via Starlink > Subject: Re: [Starlink] It=E2=80=99s the Latency, FCC > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8 >=20 > Hi Alexandre, >=20 >=20 >> On 30. Apr 2024, at 16:40, Alexandre Petrescu = wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> Le 30/04/2024 =C3=A0 16:32, Sebastian Moeller a =C3=A9crit : >>> Hi Alexandre, >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On 30. Apr 2024, at 16:25, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Colin, >>>> 8K usefulness over 4K: the higher the resolution the more it will = be possible to zoom in into paused images. It is one of the advantages. = People dont do that a lot these days but why not in the future. >>> [SM] Because that is how in the past we envisioned the future, see = here h++ps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DhHwjceFcF2Q 'enhance'... >>>=20 >>>> Spotify lower quality than CD and still usable: one would check not = Spotify, but other services for audiophiles; some of these use 'DSD' = formats which go way beyond the so called high-def audio of 384khz = sampling freqs. They dont 'stream' but download. It is these = higher-than-384khz sampling rates equivalent (e.g. DSD1024 is the = equivalent of, I think of something like 10 times CD quality, I think). = If Spotify is the king of streamers, in the future other companies might = become the kings of something else than 'streaming', a name yet to be = invented. >>>> For each of them, it is true, normal use will not expose any more = advantage than the previous version (no advantage of 8K over 4K, no = advantage of 88KHz DVD audio over CD, etc) - yet the progress is ongoing = on and on, and nobody comes back to CD or to DVD audio or to SD = (standard definition video). >>>> Finally, 8K and DSD per se are requirements of just bandwidth. The = need of latency should be exposed there, and that is not = straightforward. But higher bandwidths will come with lower latencies = anyways. >>> [SM] How that? Capacity and latency are largely independent... think = a semi truck full of harddisks from NYC to LA has decent = capacity/'bandwidth' but lousy latency... >>=20 >> I agree with you: two distinct parameters, bandwidth and latency. = But they evolve simultenously, relatively bound by a constant = relationship. For any particular link technology (satcom is one) the = bandwidth and latency are in a constant relationship. One grows, the = other diminishes. There are exceptions too, in some details. >>=20 >> (as for the truck full of harddisks, and jumbo jets full of DVDs - = they are just concepts: striking good examples of how enormous = bandwidths are possible, but still to see in practice; physicsts also = talked about a train transported by a train transported by a train and = so on, to overcome the speed of light: another striking example, but not = in practice). >=20 > [SM] Not any more, but Amazon did offer a a storage truck (for latency = insensitive transfers of huge data) > = h++ps://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/17/aws-stops-selling-snowmobile-truck-for-c > h++loud-migrations.html > so this is more than just a concept... >=20 >>=20 >> Alex >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> The quest of latency requirements might be, in fact, a quest to see = how one could use that low latency technology that is possible and = available anyways. >>>> Alex >>>> Le 30/04/2024 =C3=A0 16:00, Colin_Higbie via Starlink a =C3=A9crit = : >>>>> David Fern=C3=A1ndez, those bitrates are safe numbers, but many = streams could get by with less at those resolutions. H.265 compression = is at a variable bit rate with simpler scenes requiring less bandwidth. = Note that 4K with HDR (30 bits per pixel rather than 24) consistently = also fits within 25Mbps. >>>>>=20 >>>>> David Lang, HDR is a requirement for 4K programming. That is not = to say that all 4K streams are in HDR, but in setting a required = bandwidth, because 4K signals can include HDR, the required bandwidth = must accommodate and allow for HDR. That said, I believe all modern 4K = programming on Netflix and Amazon Prime is HDR. Note David Fern=C3=A1ndez'= point that Spain independently reached the same conclusion as the US = streaming services of 25Mbps requirement for 4K. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Visually, to a person watching and assuming an OLED (or microLED) = display capable of showing the full color and contrast gamut of HDR (LCD = can't really do it justice, even with miniLED backlighting), the move to = HDR from SDR is more meaningful in most situations than the move from = 1080p to 4K. I don't believe going to further resolutions, scenes beyond = 4K (e.g., 8K), will add anything meaningful to a movie or television = viewer over 4K. Video games could benefit from the added resolution, but = lens aberration in cameras along with focal length and limited depth of = field render blurriness of even a sharp picture greater than the pixel = size in most scenes beyond about 4K - 5.5K. Video games don=E2=80=99t = suffer this problem because those scenes are rendered, eliminating = problems from camera lenses. So video games may still benefit from 8K = resolution, but streaming programming won=E2=80=99t. >>>>>=20 >>>>> There is precedent for this in the audio streaming world: audio = streaming bitrates have retracted from prior peaks. Even though 48kHz = and higher bitrate audio available on DVD is superior to the audio = quality of 44.1kHz CDs, Spotify and Apple and most other streaming = services stream music at LOWER quality than CD. It=E2=80=99s good enough = for most people to not notice the difference. I don=E2=80=99t see much = push in the foreseeable future for programming beyond UHD (4K + HDR). = That=E2=80=99s not to say never, but there=E2=80=99s no real benefit to = it with current camera tech and screen sizes. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Conclusion: for video streaming needs over the next decade or so, = 25Mbps should be appropriate. As David Fern=C3=A1ndez rightly points = out, H.266 and other future protocols will improve compression = capabilities and reduce bandwidth needs at any given resolution and = color bit depth, adding a bit more headroom for small improvements. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Colin >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Starlink On Behalf >>>>> Of starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2024 9:31 AM >>>>> To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>>> Subject: Starlink Digest, Vol 37, Issue 9 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Message: 2 >>>>> Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 11:54:20 +0200 >>>>> From: David Fern=C3=A1ndez >>>>> To: starlink >>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] It=E2=80=99s the Latency, FCC >>>>> Message-ID: >>>>> = >>>>>=20 >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" >>>>>=20 >>>>> Last February, TV broadcasting in Spain left behind SD = definitively and moved to HD as standard quality, also starting to = regularly broadcast a channel with 4K quality. >>>>>=20 >>>>> A 4K video (2160p) at 30 frames per second, handled with the HEVC = compression codec (H.265), and using 24 bits per pixel, requires 25 = Mbit/s. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Full HD video (1080p) requires 10 Mbit/s. >>>>>=20 >>>>> For lots of 4K video encoded at < 20 Mbit/s, it may be hard to = distinguish it visually from the HD version of the same video (this was = also confirmed by SBTVD Forum Tests). >>>>>=20 >>>>> Then, 8K will come, eventually, requiring a minimum of ~32 Mbit/s: >>>>> = https://dvb.org/news/new-generation-of-terrestrial-services-taking- >>>>> shape-in-europe >>>>>=20 >>>>> The latest codec VVC (H.266) may reduce the required data rates by = at least 27%, at the expense of more computing power required, but = somehow it is claimed it will be more energy efficient. >>>>> = https://dvb.org/news/dvb-prepares-the-way-for-advanced-4k-and-8k-br >>>>> oadcast-and-broadband-television >>>>>=20 >>>>> Regards, >>>>>=20 >>>>> David >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --Apple-Mail=_9063042A-1049-4F5B-8108-AA9EF7CD4E83 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Colin,
I agree with your comments.
Where do the 3 - 8 sec pauses in my video experience fit = this discussion?
An occasional pause (once an = evening) pause might be overlooked. Several times in a program suggest a = systemic problem.

Gene
----------------------------------------------
Eugene Chang
IEEE Life Senior Member
IEEE = Communications Society & Signal Processing Society,    
    Hawaii Chapter Chair
IEEE Life Member = Affinity Group Hawaii Chair
IEEE Entrepreneurship, Mentor
eugene.chang@ieee.org
m 781-799-0233 (in = Honolulu)



On Apr 30, 2024, at 9:12 AM, Colin_Higbie via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

Spotify lower quality = than CD and still usable: one would check not Spotify, but other = services for audiophiles; some of these use 'DSD' formats which go way = beyond the so called high-def audio of 384khz sampling freqs.  They = dont 'stream' but download.  It is these higher-than-384khz = sampling rates equivalent (e.g. DSD1024 is the equivalent of, I think of = something like 10 times CD quality, I think).  If Spotify is the = king of streamers, in the future other companies might become the kings = of something else than 'streaming', a name yet to be invented.
For each of them, it is true, normal use will not expose any = more advantage than the previous version (no advantage of 8K over 4K, no = advantage of 88KHz DVD audio over CD, etc) - yet the progress is ongoing = on and on, and nobody comes back to CD or to DVD audio or to SD = (standard definition video).
Finally, 8K and DSD per se = are requirements of just bandwidth.  The need of latency should be = exposed there, and that is not straightforward.  But higher = bandwidths will come with lower latencies anyways.

Sorry, = not sure if that's Alexandre or Sebastion, but to those points:

Spotify is absolutely the correct metric = because it's the commercial leader (and roughly aligned from a quality = perspective with Amazon Music, Apple, iHeart Radio, and the others = popular services). The fact that it's lower quality than what = audiophiles (myself included) would prefer only proves the point: most = users (AKA the "market") don't care enough about the audio quality to = want to go beyond CD quality. This is how the market establishes a = "sufficient" level of quality. It's not a fixed figure and can change = over time. If some musical artist creates some popular music that sounds = meaningfully different to most listeners between 44.1kHz CD quality and = the newer higher quality 96kHz 7.1 surround sound AND if the cost in = equipment and connections to hear that difference were attainable to the = mass market, then that could move the standard, but that's what it would = take.

If it's only we few audiophiles who = hear the difference, then the market won't care and will continue to = say, "CD Quality is good enough. Now leave me alone with my music." = :-)

If Spotify were in mono and sounded = fuzzy like old AM radio, because that's clearly much worse even to the = untrained ear, there would be an ongoing push for better quality audio. = But that's not the situation.

Same logic = with video. Is 12K better than 8K better than 4K? Yes. Is that a = commercially important distinction? No, not in 2024, and the video = quality change vectors would suggest it won't be in the next 10 years = either (maybe will be after that). This is because at that quality level = (like CD quality for audio), the digital quality achieves a level where = either original recording equipment or the average human eye, brain, and = ear can no longer distinguish between further advances. This is not an = argument against over-provisioning bandwidth capacity to plan for the = future, just laying out that a future with greater bandwidth needs per = video stream is nothing that's coming soon.

(As a LAN aside and parallel to show there is a common = precedent with networking equipment for these growth rates, home and = small business routers have had a max bandwidth of 1Gbps at mass market = pricing for over a decade. Arguably, that's still the upper limit today. = 10Gbps is still extremely rare and expensive for routers with more than = a single 10Gbps uplink port, with 2.5Gbps being the more common upgrade = both on PC motherboards and in the router ports.)

SD -> HD is a HUGE improvement. SD is fuzzy (like mono AM = radio). Facial expressions are hard to see without filling the screen = with the person's face. HD -> 4K is noticeable, but much less = significant. 4K with compression artifacts looks WORSE than a high = quality 1080p stream. 4K -> 8K is literally imperceptible to typical = people on typical sized TV's. While there are video cameras that can = record at 8K in good lighting (even good reasonably priced studio = digital cameras cannot record quality above 4K without excellent = lighting), the picture quality limits are defined more by the optics and = what's in focus than by the number of pixels. Further, for displaying an = image even on an 83" TV, when viewed from more than a few feet away, = must humans can't tell the difference between 4K and 8K even if the 8K = image truly is sharper (and remember, they're usually not due to camera = limitations).

But all of that technical = explanation is also irrelevant. The fact is that Netflix, Amazon, = Disney+, and some of the other big streaming services only offer 4K + = HDR streams. None of them offer or have suggested that they intend to = offer anything higher than that. The lion's share of TVs for sale today = are also 4K TV. Even computer monitors, which have always been a leading = indicator for TV resolutions, mostly top at 4K. There are a few 5K = monitors, but the price jump from 4K to 5K is substantial. 8K monitors = are rarer and even more expensive. This gives insight into a minimum = timeframe before 4K is supplanted by 8K or something else: it's at least = many years away. I suspect 3D may make a comeback before 8K (or maybe = together =E2=80=93 sometimes tech advances because it's paired with = something else, like Blu-ray and 1080p).

I = worry that many of the discussions here around bandwidth needs are = academic and not market driven. Engineers and scientists know better = than the market HOW to do something, HOW to solve the problems, but = market always knows better than the engineers WHAT it wants. To be clear = on a point dear to many here, the market may not know how to describe = what it wants (e.g., the failing of ISPs to promote the importance of = latency), but ignorance on technical matters is not the same as not = knowing what it likes and wants. We can easily test for those = distinctions via focus groups to let people actually experience the = differences or via usage surveys to find out what users want to do. If = you have a statistically significant sample, you will get a = statistically significant response on what matters.

One last caveat: while the market is the ONLY group that = matters in determining what it wants, the market also may be poor in = explaining what it wants. If you'd asked the market what it wanted = improved in a VCR, the market never would have said, "We want a DVD = player" or "We want streaming video over the Internet." They would just = say they don't like picture quality, rewinding tapes, tape wear, etc. = All problems solved by DVD and modern streaming. So it's important for = marketing teams working with engineers to ask the right questions and = truly understand the responses so that clever engineers can innovate the = best solutions to solve the market's pain points.

Hope that helps everyone here.

Cheers,
Colin





-----Original = Message-----
From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of = starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net
Sent: = Tuesday, April 30, 2024 10:56 AM
To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
Subject: = Starlink Digest, Vol 37, Issue 12

Send = Starlink mailing list submissions to
starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
= https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
or, = via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
= starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net

You can reach the person managing the list at
= starlink-owner@lists.bufferbloat.net

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=   1. Re: It=E2=80=99s the Latency, FCC (Sebastian Moeller)

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Message: 1
Date: Tue, = 30 Apr 2024 16:45:07 +0200
From: Sebastian Moeller = <moeller0@gmx.de>
To: Alexandre Petrescu = <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
Cc: Hesham ElBakoury = via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject:= Re: [Starlink] It=E2=80=99s the Latency, FCC
Message-ID: = <A53E11CF-FDA1-4AAE-A6EC-51EDD3B85995@gmx.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8

Hi Alexandre,


On 30. Apr 2024, at = 16:40, Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:


Le 30/04/2024 =C3=A0 16:32, = Sebastian Moeller a =C3=A9crit :
Hi Alexandre,



On 30. Apr 2024, at = 16:25, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink = <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

Colin,
8K usefulness over 4K: the higher the = resolution the more it will be possible to zoom in into paused images. =  It is one of the advantages.  People dont do that a lot these = days but why not in the future.
[SM] Because = that is how in the past we envisioned the future, see here = h++ps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DhHwjceFcF2Q 'enhance'...

Spotify = lower quality than CD and still usable: one would check not Spotify, but = other services for audiophiles; some of these use 'DSD' formats which go = way beyond the so called high-def audio of 384khz sampling freqs. =  They dont 'stream' but download.  It is these = higher-than-384khz sampling rates equivalent (e.g. DSD1024 is the = equivalent of, I think of something like 10 times CD quality, I think). =  If Spotify is the king of streamers, in the future other companies = might become the kings of something else than 'streaming', a name yet to = be invented.
For each of them, it is true, normal use will = not expose any more advantage than the previous version (no advantage of = 8K over 4K, no advantage of 88KHz DVD audio over CD, etc) - yet the = progress is ongoing on and on, and nobody comes back to CD or to DVD = audio or to SD (standard definition video).
Finally, 8K = and DSD per se are requirements of just bandwidth.  The need of = latency should be exposed there, and that is not straightforward. =  But higher bandwidths will come with lower latencies anyways.
[SM] How that? Capacity and latency are largely = independent... think a semi truck full of harddisks from NYC to LA has = decent capacity/'bandwidth' but lousy latency...

I agree with you: two distinct = parameters, bandwidth and latency.  But they evolve simultenously, = relatively bound by a constant relationship.  For any particular = link  technology (satcom is one) the bandwidth and latency are in a = constant relationship.  One grows, the other diminishes. =  There are exceptions too, in some details.

(as for the truck full of harddisks, and jumbo jets full of = DVDs - they are just concepts: striking good examples of how enormous = bandwidths are possible, but still to see in practice; physicsts also = talked about a train transported by a train transported by a train and = so on, to overcome the speed of light: another striking example, but not = in practice).

[SM] Not any = more, but Amazon did offer a a storage truck (for latency insensitive = transfers of huge data)
h++ps://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/17/aws-stops-selling-snowmobile-tr= uck-for-c
h++loud-migrations.html
so this is = more than just a concept...


Alex



The quest of latency = requirements might be, in fact, a quest to see how one could use that = low latency technology that is possible and available anyways.
Alex
Le 30/04/2024 =C3=A0 16:00, Colin_Higbie = via Starlink a =C3=A9crit :
David Fern=C3=A1ndez, those bitrates are safe numbers, but = many streams could get by with less at those resolutions. H.265 = compression is at a variable bit rate with simpler scenes requiring less = bandwidth. Note that 4K with HDR (30 bits per pixel rather than 24) = consistently also fits within 25Mbps.

David = Lang, HDR is a requirement for 4K programming. That is not to say that = all 4K streams are in HDR, but in setting a required bandwidth, because = 4K signals can include HDR, the required bandwidth must accommodate and = allow for HDR. That said, I believe all modern 4K programming on Netflix = and Amazon Prime is HDR. Note David Fern=C3=A1ndez' point that Spain = independently reached the same conclusion as the US streaming services = of 25Mbps requirement for 4K.

Visually, to = a person watching and assuming an OLED (or microLED) display capable of = showing the full color and contrast gamut of HDR (LCD can't really do it = justice, even with miniLED backlighting), the move to HDR from SDR is = more meaningful in most situations than the move from 1080p to 4K. I = don't believe going to further resolutions, scenes beyond 4K (e.g., 8K), = will add anything meaningful to a movie or television viewer over 4K. = Video games could benefit from the added resolution, but lens aberration = in cameras along with focal length and limited depth of field render = blurriness of even a sharp picture greater than the pixel size in most = scenes beyond about 4K - 5.5K. Video games don=E2=80=99t suffer this = problem because those scenes are rendered, eliminating problems from = camera lenses. So video games may still benefit from 8K resolution, but = streaming programming won=E2=80=99t.

There = is precedent for this in the audio streaming world: audio streaming = bitrates have retracted from prior peaks. Even though 48kHz and higher = bitrate audio available on DVD is superior to the audio quality of = 44.1kHz CDs, Spotify and Apple and most other streaming services stream = music at LOWER quality than CD. It=E2=80=99s good enough for most people = to not notice the difference. I don=E2=80=99t see much push in the = foreseeable future for programming beyond UHD (4K + HDR). That=E2=80=99s = not to say never, but there=E2=80=99s no real benefit to it with current = camera tech and screen sizes.

Conclusion: = for video streaming needs over the next decade or so, 25Mbps should be = appropriate. As David Fern=C3=A1ndez rightly points out, H.266 and other = future protocols will improve compression capabilities and reduce = bandwidth needs at any given resolution and color bit depth, adding a = bit more headroom for small improvements.

Cheers,
Colin



-----Original Message-----
From: = Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf
Of starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net
Sent: = Tuesday, April 30, 2024 9:31 AM
To: = starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
Subject: Starlink Digest, = Vol 37, Issue 9



Message: 2
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 11:54:20 = +0200
From: David Fern=C3=A1ndez = <davidfdzp@gmail.com>
To: starlink = <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: = [Starlink] It=E2=80=99s the Latency, FCC
Message-ID:
<CAC=3DtZ0rrmWJUNLvGupw6K8ogADcYLq-eyW7Bjb209oNDWGfVSA@mail.= gmail.com

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"

Last February, TV broadcasting in Spain left = behind SD definitively and moved to HD as standard quality, also = starting to regularly broadcast a channel with 4K quality.

A 4K video (2160p) at 30 frames per second, = handled with the HEVC compression codec (H.265), and using 24 bits per = pixel, requires 25 Mbit/s.

Full HD video = (1080p) requires 10 Mbit/s.

For lots of 4K = video encoded at < 20 Mbit/s, it may be hard to distinguish it = visually from the HD version of the same video (this was also confirmed = by SBTVD Forum Tests).

Then, 8K will come, = eventually, requiring a minimum of ~32 Mbit/s:
https://dvb.org/news/new-generation-of-terrestrial-services-tak= ing-
shape-in-europe

The = latest codec VVC (H.266) may reduce the required data rates by at least = 27%, at the expense of more computing power required, but somehow it is = claimed it will be more energy efficient.
https://dvb.org/news/dvb-prepares-the-way-for-advanced-4k-and-8= k-br
oadcast-and-broadband-television

Regards,

David


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