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boundary="Apple-Mail=_45F254A4-2FF3-47E9-B6B5-39FEFEE475F4"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: alum.mit.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: CO6PR12MB5427.namprd12.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b60460c2-cc5c-4d0b-514e-08db469cdafb X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 26 Apr 2023 21:26:10.5366 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: lUx7UyE9NidkOcLUwyU7UOlXK5QnEjF9aYd+ZsdVOlgDfKWxhwiPiPg92Oafsd4dJA1T0QLN9iDOh2yaZO5i9JN7T2Nd3+TzQU0d6qkSGZw= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: PH7PR12MB5617 Subject: Re: [Starlink] some post Starship launch thoughts X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 21:26:13 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_45F254A4-2FF3-47E9-B6B5-39FEFEE475F4 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0D48747B-B1B9-4DC9-85E8-3F0935E830B0" --Apple-Mail=_0D48747B-B1B9-4DC9-85E8-3F0935E830B0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I like the simplicity of just H2O or LN2. Ok for steel plate, we need to think about the plate exposed to the exhaust gas and how that will wear The thickness of the plate and the thermoresistance of the plate The water behind the plate heat of phase transistion of water from liquid to gas heat of absorbtion of the H2O as gas moving the water through the cavity (behind the metal plate) how fast can we move the water how much heat absorbing mass needs to be moved how to manage the escaping steam and the pressure of the steam the machiney to force the water into the cavity and keep replacing the = steam And whether H2O or LN2, where does it come from what is the cost of preparing the liquid what is the cost of the tanks holding the liquid I assume either liquid is completely vaporized. This solution is approaching visualizing the rocket=E2=80=99s engine = blasting into the cooling system jet =E2=80=9Cexhaust=E2=80=9D with = neutralized gas coming out of the two opposing jets. In many sense, two = equal and opposite forces. That is the implication of neutralization. Gene ----------------------------------- Eugene Chang eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu +1-781-799-0233 (in Honolulu) > On Apr 26, 2023, at 11:10 AM, Dave Taht via Starlink = wrote: >=20 > On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 1:41=E2=80=AFPM Rodney W. Grimes > > = wrote: >>=20 >>> As always I enjoy the flood of information we get on this list! >>>=20 >>> still, so far, my research on a nitrogen deluge system (instead of >>> water) has come up empty for me, except as a fire suppressant. So = it?s >>> either crazy or brilliant. Or both! I really liked the idea of >>> something cooler that was a natural byproduct of the LOX process... >>=20 >> I dont think cooler does much, isnt it the "energy of vaporization" >> that is actually doing all the "work" in this type of system? >>=20 >> H2O is 40.7 kJ/mol and LN2 is 5.6 kJ/mol so you would >> need ~7 times as much LN2 to do the same work. >=20 > Now that! was the kind of numbers I was looking for! >=20 > Still, water has to come from somewhere, and be stored. I will keep > thinking about it. I like that they seem to think that a water cooled > steel plate will suffice. >=20 >> And the reason N2 is used as a fire suppressant is again not >> because of temperature, but because it displaces the O2 and >> suffocates the fire. N2 is also easier on our ozone layer >> than the prior used Halon. Finally, this is usually >> compressed N2 gas, not LN2. >>=20 >> -- >> Rod Grimes = rgrimes@freebsd.org >=20 >=20 > -- > AMA March 31: = https://www.broadband.io/c/broadband-grant-events/dave-taht = > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink = --Apple-Mail=_0D48747B-B1B9-4DC9-85E8-3F0935E830B0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I = like the simplicity of just H2O or LN2. 

Ok for steel plate, we need to think = about 
  • the plate exposed to the exhaust gas and how that will = wear
  • The thickness of the plate and the = thermoresistance of the plate
  • The water behind the = plate
    • heat of phase transistion of = water from liquid to gas
    • heat of absorbtion of the = H2O as gas
  • moving the water through the cavity = (behind the metal plate)
    • how fast can = we move the water
    • how much heat absorbing mass needs = to be moved
    • how to manage the escaping steam and the = pressure of the steam
    • the machiney to force the water = into the cavity and keep replacing the steam

And whether H2O or = LN2, 
  • where does it come from
  • what is the cost = of preparing the liquid
  • what is the cost of the tanks = holding the liquid
I assume either liquid is = completely vaporized.

This solution is approaching visualizing the rocket=E2=80=99s = engine blasting into the cooling system jet =E2=80=9Cexhaust=E2=80=9D = with neutralized gas coming out of the two opposing jets. In many sense, = two equal and opposite forces. That is the implication of = neutralization.

=

Gene
-----------------------------------
Eugene Chang
eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu
+1-781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)





On Apr 26, 2023, at 11:10 AM, Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 1:41=E2=80=AFPM Rodney W. = Grimes
<starlink@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> wrote:

As always I enjoy the flood of information we = get on this list!

still, so far, my = research on a nitrogen deluge system (instead of
water) = has come up empty for me, except as a fire suppressant. So it?s
either crazy or brilliant. Or both! I really liked the idea = of
something cooler that was a natural byproduct of the = LOX process...

I dont think = cooler does much, isnt it the "energy of vaporization"
that = is actually doing all the "work" in this type of system?
H2O is 40.7 kJ/mol and LN2 is 5.6 kJ/mol so you would
need ~7 times as much LN2 to do the same work.

Now that! was the kind of numbers I was looking = for!

Still, water = has to come from somewhere, and be stored. I will keep
thinking = about it. I like that they seem to think that a water cooled
steel plate = will suffice.

And = the reason N2 is used as a fire suppressant is again not
because of temperature, but because it displaces the O2 = and
suffocates the fire.  N2 is also easier on our = ozone layer
than the prior used Halon.  Finally, this = is usually
compressed N2 gas, not LN2.

--
Rod Grimes =             &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;            =            rgrimes@freebsd.org


--
AMA March = 31: https://www.broadband.io/c/broadband-grant-events/dave-taht=
Dave T=C3=A4ht = CEO, TekLibre, LLC
_______________________________________________
Starlink = mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

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